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You can simulate this, to some extent

Use excel or some other spreadsheet type application.

Here's the info to collect on the vehicle(s) you want to "race"
dry weight
peak torque
final drive ratio
all gear ratios
tire size
driveline loss factor, if unknown 15%
tire size (i.e. 225/50R16)

now, here's what you can do. setup the gear ratios 1-n as rows in the spreadsheet, in column A.
for Column B, take the final ratio times the cell in column A. That is your torque multiplier for that gear.

For column C, take column B times the engine peak torque

for column d, take column C times (1-driveline loss factor)

column d will be the corrected torque delivered to the drive axles, in each gear

using the tire size information, you can figure out the rolling tire diameter. this formula is on the internet, but it's something like this -
diameter = wheel diameter + width * aspect ratio

the problem is that width is given in MM and diameter is in inches.. and this is the diameter of the total wheel.

what you _want_ is the rolling wheel+tire radius in feet. For now, substitue 1.0, as most rolling wheel assemblies have about a 1 foot radius.

for column E, divide column D by the rolling wheel radius you calculated.

that is the torque you are delivering to the pavement in each gear.

for column F, take column E divided by the vhiecles weight. That is the delivered torque-to-the-ground divided by weight ratio.
the torque to the ground is how much FORCE you are pushing the car forward with. the WEIGHT of the vehicle ultimately inhibits how much acceleration you can get (F = ma).

In column G, take all the values in column E divided by HALF of the vehicles weight. This is _roughly_ the torque / weight ratio to the DRIVE wheels. This assumes a 50/50 weight distribution, which wont be the case for most cars (unless we're talking BMWs) and only matters at acclerative rest, since the weight distribution changes front to back with acceleration or decelleration.

after you've done all this, you've got a good idea of what percentage of the vehicles weight the vehicle is pushing to the drive wheels, in each gear. This number is roughly comparable to what you should expect for acceleration. If you get a value > 1.0 in column G, you should expect to be able to spin the tires at the torque peak in that gear.

if you do this for a few differnet cars, column f and G should be an accurate comparator of the cars acceleration. The problem here is that this completely ignores horsepower, and it uses a fixed torque value (the torque peak) instead of integrating along the torque curve. This model is only accurate if the vehicle is near its torque peak the entire time it is accelerating. This depends on the engine and gearing of the car in question.

the number in column G is roughly the "pull" of that car in that gear. If you find that some other car is 10% or more higher than you in each gear, expect them to beat you until at least 80mph or so, when aerodynamic effects become significant.

let me know if anyone has any questions.
 
LOL I just did the math .

The results


My brother ridding his scooter 99 wont beat a Maxima 2002 ......... because the scooter has 20Hp agains 222hp from the maxima.

But If i give him a little push with my passat 1.8T chipped sport k03 215HP He will have a coeficient of drag that will take his glasses off and without seeing anything and being on a scooter at 130 mph ( the wheels are pretty small you guys have to see that) He will crash after 21 seconds , He will loose his left arm and leg ( if He gets lucky) and probably the scooter will be totaled. Anyway We have insurance and We both ate at Subway today
 
ok i just typed up some data i found on the 2002 1.8T 5spd Variant, and the 2002 V6 5spd Variant, and the (not sure which year, but 4.6L V8) Mustang GT.

Basically, the mustang GT crushes both passats. Nott that it should surprise anyone, its packing 305 ft/lbs and weighs about the same.

You have to remember, the GT is under 6 seconds to 60 off the show room floor.

Now, whats interesting is that for an unchipped 1.8T, the 1.8T is really the loser here, as the final effective torque to weight ratios show the 2.8 beating the 1.8T in every gear.

Here are the final numbers for delivered torque to the pavement, divided by half the vehicle weight. the columns are 2.8, 1.8T, and Mustang, respectively.

1st 1.286803662 1.150473613 1.756894393
2nd 0.713256887 0.663500655 1.043647714
3rd 0.477955646 0.435232081 0.697513296
4th 0.345598698 0.313488842 0.524446088
5th 0.29044997 0.255660803 0.35662334

You can see that the 2.8 and 1.8T are pretty close to each other, but with the 2.8 on top in all cases. You can also see that the mustang completely outclasses both cars. I'm using 206 ft/lbs for the 2.8 and 166 ft/lbs for the 1.8T.

The 1.8T has different gearing to compensate for the power/torque reduction compared to the V6.. its only about 90 pounds lighter. They use identical tires so that isn't a factor.. whats interesting is that the gearing on the 1.8T is more aggressive such that the torque multiplier on the 1.8T is higher than the 2.8 in each gear.. but the crank torque of the 2.8 is so much higher than the 1.8T that the 2.8 comes out in the long run.

On the other hand, if you chipped your 1.8T, my calculations show that you'll need to make 186 ft/lbs at the crank to match the 2.8 in 1st gear, and that in all subsequent gears the 1.8T should have a slight advantage.

If you want to hang with a mustang GT in a 1.8T, you'll need to be making about 265 ft/lbs a the crank to be close to the mustang, gear for gear. (you'll trounce the mustang in 1st gear, but realistically be wheel spin limited) other gears will be very close.
 
1.8tbeout said:
i hate being the one to have to say it but a factory mustang gt will spank a chipped 1.8t passat. sorry. if anyone doesn't believe me we can meet up and settle it. the only chance a passat has is i wouldn't want to be in the 02 mustang gt over 100 mph, its a little scary, maybe it needs better suspension. the passat i feel comfortable up to 140 so far.
Thats what I was gonna said too. From start Gt is faster then my Passat. But if you consider that GT is V8 and has engine size almost 5.0L then its not that fast. Because from start GT is going ahead only by 2/1/5 cars. Then when I reach speed of 140 150mph I can smoke any Mustang including Billit.
 
blah blah blah.

I've done things in my modest passat that I couldn't dream of in a "mustang GT"

This thread actually makes me hostile enough to hit the track next weekend to knock out better than stock GT times.

Most people running auto "mustang GTs" can't drive. and believe me, with a stock GT and a modified 1.8t it is a DRIVERS race. Practice shifting, you'll beat 'em in the quarter, and further, probably the 60' ft. too!


Anyone got a 4.6 in San Antonio?
 
this is ridiculous.

sure, on a track with TURNS, its all about the drivers.. but in a straightline drag race the mustang GT would ahve to be driven pathologically badly to lose to a 1.8T, chipped or not. You are delusional if you beleive otherwise.

the mustang has significant torque and HP on the passat, not to mentino it is RWD which is in all ways superior to the FWD on the passat, and finally its weight penalty is within 100 pounds of the passat.


the only chance a 1.8T passat has on a mustang in a stop light race is if the mustang guy misses a shift or isn't trying.
 
Spanky McGee said:
blah blah blah.

I've done things in my modest passat that I couldn't dream of in a "mustang GT"

This thread actually makes me hostile enough to hit the track next weekend to knock out better than stock GT times.

Most people running auto "mustang GTs" can't drive. and believe me, with a stock GT and a modified 1.8t it is a DRIVERS race. Practice shifting, you'll beat 'em in the quarter, and further, probably the 60' ft. too!


Anyone got a 4.6 in San Antonio?
O.K. a stock gt does a low 14 1/4 mile. an insanely tuned passat will do the same. everyone knows about the 12 sec passat but how much $$$ did he drop. practice shifting all you want and you cant shift faster than an automatic tranny. the only advantage there is taking off you can rev higher with a stick. silly argument here, i love my chipped 1.8t but it isn't faster than an 02 gt in almost any scenerio besides a track sporting stock suspension. there are many tuned mustangs that will out handle stock passats. there was a huge susp. change for 01+ mustangs and with a little tuning it isn't a poor handling car by any means.

and saying most people who have auto gt's cant drive is retarded, if you checked into it a lot of people who drag race mustangs professionally prefer an automatic tranny. my 60 year old dad will spank you in his 02 gt automatic.
 
I have a K04 so its a little different from what most of you have. But here is my experiances.

mustang gt - 99+ are pretty fast. I have no problems keeping up with one or beating it depending on the driver. Once they mod.....kiss them good bye. My friend with 99 GT with intake and straightpipes is no match to me.....just hope they are stock. Autos are slooow. Beat 3 already. Older 98 and before are slow as well.....215hp I think

nissan maxima - All of these are fast really.....I got beat 2 times by the older ones when I was stock. Now I have no problems. I raced the 2003 (225hp) on 3 occasions. 2 times on the highway and 1 of the light. All 3 times I beat it. From a 80mph pull I can pull about 2-3 car lengths. Of the light I beat one by 1 car length. They are fast though....

toyota solara - never raced one.....but a stock 1.8t shouldn't have problems....

nissan 350z - raced it once. I acctually beat it up to 70-80mph. About 1/2 car length. I find 300ZX harder to beat.....especially modded ones.

Bottom line....its not about the car....its about the driver.

BTW, I have $2500 worth of go fast goodies....thats not bad considering that the car cost 21500+2.5k=24k.....thats about what Stang GT goes for.

Not bad for a 4 cylinder family sedan....

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my buddy has a 03 max and when i had my v6 passat we were pretty even from about 30mph up. both cars are sticks. his max is stock and my passat had chip, intake, plugs and exhaust. i never raced him when i had the true daul exhaust though.

this spring i'll run him with my 20th and i think it will be a different story. that little car flies :D of course its not stock :D
 
thrash said:
this is ridiculous.

sure, on a track with TURNS, its all about the drivers.. but in a straightline drag race the mustang GT would ahve to be driven pathologically badly to lose to a 1.8T, chipped or not. You are delusional if you beleive otherwise...
Really? So for the several guys on VWVortex with stock turbos that run 13s all day long (without N20) it isn't about the driver? The more you take your car to the track (no matter what it is) generally, the faster you get. thats pretty simple.

...the only chance a 1.8T passat has on a mustang in a stop light race is if the mustang guy misses a shift or isn't trying.
Yeah, if you *miss a shift* in an automatic, you truly suck.
(since we're talking about autos FYI)

O.K. a stock gt does a low 14 1/4 mile. an insanely tuned passat will do the same.
Insanely tuned? Not in my opinion. An aggressive chip that takes advantage of higher octane, good suspension, some 15 Drag Radials with a LITTLE weight reduction (with a good driver) will churn out low 14s, and for not all that much $$$

everyone knows about the 12 sec passat but how much $$$ did he drop?
Talking with some guys who knew him from NY, apparently about 3k on a t3/t4 and all the trimmings, a complete custom install (which him and his friends performed) IMHO, thats not alot. cavat: Don't make the mistake of generizing labor prices for everyone in a situation where a person did it themselves. I say more power to them. (no pun intended)

practice shifting all you want and you cant shift faster than an automatic tranny. the only advantage there is taking off you can rev higher with a stick
Thats the ONLY ADVANTAGE? I think not. Aparently your 60 year old dad should teach you about the benifits of double clutching and rev matching. Stock automatics rob power during shifts. Im I insane, or do all 11 year old girls know this?

and saying most people who have auto gt's cant drive is retarded, if you checked into it a lot of people who drag race mustangs professionally prefer an automatic tranny.
I realize PRO DRAG RACERS usually prefer automatics. but are MOST PEOPLE PRO DRAG RACERS? Are the automatic transmissions in PRO Drag Cars stock? The answer is no. That is exactly what I'm trying to say. Many people on the street that own STOCK Automatic Mustang GTs are college girls who couldn't drive the car out of a wet paper bag. I'm not talking about bumping up against John Force at a stoplight either.

my 60 year old dad will spank you in his 02 gt automatic
Is it completely stock? I'd welcome that challenge. It would be fun. But I assure you, there would be no spanking of any kind involved. Just My name. thats it.
 
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