Is the American car manufacturing business as we know it over? Discuss.

Let's hope so. Crappy cars, filthy rich greedy execs and the UAW. They all need to go.

 

Our domestic companies have been building inferior products. Heaven forbid they step up to the competition. In the latest C&D test of sport convertibles, the Corvette C6 came 4th of 4, to the Audi TTS, BMW Z4s, and Porsche Boxter S. The Corvette is the oldest of the 4, so naturally it was at a disadvantage, but the Euros have up'd their game. And the Corvette has been known as one of the best American cars made. Corvette sales have been great ever since the C6 came out (largly due to the ALMS campaigns).

We ourselves, drive VWs. Why didnt we buy the Ford Fusion? Or the Buick LaCrosse? Or the other American sedans? Was it their reliability? Their cost? MPG? It was something. Something effects lots of Americans. When you think of an American car, you dont really think luxery, like when you think about a European car. Maybe as consumers, theres just not a good enough choices to go with domestic. My family has owned American cars in the past, but not since the late '90s. When it came to the minivan scene, the Honda Oddysey rocked. It was safer, more reliable, better on fuel, more room than the rest of its competition. It was so good, that when the next model came out in I think 2005, we got the new one.

Another Car and Driver road test involved new trucks for the 2006 year. You had the Chevy Colorado, Dodge Dakot, Honda Ridgeline, Nissan Frontier, and Toyota Tacoma. The results: Honda, Nissian, Toyota, Dodge, Chevrolet.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ta_2006_honda_ridgeline_2005_nissan_frontier_2005_toyota_tacoma_comparison_test

These days, theres only a few American models I like. Corvette is pretty much the only GM product Id touch, maybe the new Camero. Ford does better, I like the Mustang. In a recent test, the new 2010 Mustang GT beat the new Dodge Challenger R/T and new Camero SS. It was cheaper, lightest by 300 pounds, had the best grip. It only lost the 1/4 mile test by .6 seconds. Not bad when it comes with 315hp, compared to the Chevys 426hp, and the Dodges 376hp.

American car manufacturing needs to change to survive. I like that they tried to make more fuel effiecent vehicles. But I want them to build something I want to buy.

 

We ourselves, drive VWs. Why didnt we buy the Ford Fusion? Or the Buick LaCrosse? Or the other American sedans? Was it their reliability? Their cost? MPG? It was something. Something effects lots of Americans. When you think of an American car, you dont really think luxery, like when you think about a European car. Maybe as consumers, theres just not a good enough choices to go with domestic.

American car manufacturing needs to change to survive. I like that they tried to make more fuel effiecent vehicles. But I want them to build something I want to buy.

I disagree with you on the points above, except the part about choice.

I drive a VW because I of being in the business I'm in: Aftermarket Auto Parts. Craptastic pay, no bennies except for a discount, and long, useless, dead-end hours. Maybe it's just the company I'm stuck with til July, but I'd LOVE to go and buy a new Ford Fusion. Unfortunately, the cheapest I've seen them is 8K, and that's a wreck/rebuild. Once they depreciate more, I will get. I drive a VW because it was $1650 with low mileage and mostly everything functioning with no rot (plus it's my little addiction now). I'd also pick up the new Ford Fiesta concept that's out on the road now. If I could pick up a payment and afford full coverage insurance (thanks to my JDM/Honda phase- not so much).

Keep in mind Cadillac has been holding their own, somewhat. Except for the Cimarron in the 80's which was as laughable as alot of GM's lineup.

GM had been building fuel efficient vehicles to try and compete with overseas. Unfortunately, the Cavalier, Malibu, and Impala didn't have much for the Corolla/Camry, Civic/CRX/Accord, Sentra/Altima/Maxima. GM (and Chrysler, and somewhat Ford) have relied heavy on what worked in the 70's, 80's and early 90's: Big trucks, V8 cars and SUV's. The taurus remained somewhat successful, to the point where the ford five hundred didn't sell, so they renamed it for brand association. But Japanese sold the reliability thing, and backed it up for the most part, while US companies sat on the sideline and waited for the next truck to roll off the lot.

I honestly think the Fusion design is/was great. They drive great, are practical, and affordable (except to me at this point in my short life).

Muscle cars and big trucks were a phase of the 90's, Asian cars became the next big thing, and now the allure of European stuff is catching on pretty big. I think it's only a matter of time before either the Domestic car market catches up, or falls flat on it's face again. No in-between.

 

I have an 09 impala as a rental, and well i can see why they are going under

 

I rented some form of a small Chevy Compact car, the Aveo. I know that it was a base model, the cheapest plateform made, but my god! Everything was bad plastic, I had to roll up and down my windows, and my mirrors were plastic stubs! And this is a 2008 model! :lol:

 

no sh!t this thing is cheap, it doesnt even have one touch down for the passenger front window

 

I'll say both the Fusion and the new Malibu are pretty sharp looking cars. They are definitely more exciting to look at than the Camry or the Altima. I am just not sure that the people will trust that these vehicles will be as reliable and hold their value as well the Japanese brands. Although I am not a big fan of the American brands, I hope things turn around for them and I think they will, but it could take a long time.

 

I hope some one buys Holden and Opel and brings them to the US intact.:thumbup:

 

Ick ...Opel?

Caddy Catera - rebadged Opel. Biggest piece of turd ever.
Saturn Astra - rebadged Opel. Second biggest piece of turd ever.

Holden - okay. Just rip the badges off of the Pontiac G8, change some body cladding and you've got me sold on the Holden Commodore. (It is a Commodore under there, right?)

Id like the new fiesta, love the Top Gear video :thumbup:

If I were to get a Fiesta, I'd totally drive it along the beach, through some waves and fire off some weaponry from the open windows.

Simply one of the best car reviews I've ever seen produced.

 

now my ford stock shares are gonna skyrocket

 

I like the Fusion, its on my list of cars to consider. My supervisor at work traded in his Lexus for a Fusion, I've ridden in it a couple of times, I was impressed with the ride quality and the fit and finish, the six has decent power. Another co-worker has the new Malibu, its nice also, seems more refined than the Fusion but more cheap plastic.

But in reality, I'll probably end up buying another VW.

GM's had their problems for years, I had a '92 S-10 that was a big POS, traded it in after a year for a Mazda 626.

But I wish all American car companies and their employees well, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now.

 

lately, I've been making loads of trips to Syracuse. 300 miles, one way, and I'm driving. I've driven quite a few different cars, guys...
1. the Nissan Altima driving position sucks for long trips. I can't get comfortable for long in one. the newer Sentra is a total POS.
2. the Dodge products are just fair. I've driven the Sebring, the Charger, and a couple of other non-descript models.
3. the Impala and the Malibu have been the best of the lot. the G6 isn't bad, either - too bad Pontiac has been part of the fall-out.

I haven't driven any Fords recently, so I can not comment on those.

 

lately, I've been making loads of trips to Syracuse. 300 miles, one way, and I'm driving. I've driven quite a few different cars, guys...
1. the Nissan Altima driving position sucks for long trips. I can't get comfortable for long in one. the newer Sentra is a total POS.
2. the Dodge products are just fair. I've driven the Sebring, the Charger, and a couple of other non-descript models.
3. the Impala and the Malibu have been the best of the lot. the G6 isn't bad, either - too bad Pontiac has been part of the fall-out.

I haven't driven any Fords recently, so I can not comment on those.

Thread hijack: What are you doing in Syracuse? I used to live there.

 

General Motors will from now on be referred to as "Government" Motors....

 

i thought they were groveling motors... :lol:

 

^^ :lol:

 

Jobs weren't saved? Really? 3 weeks ago, conservatives were complaining Obama outmanuevered bondholders to avoid total liquidation of GM. Everyone currently employed by GM is a saved job. Deal with it.

 

IMO American products have already surpassed many of Asian and European offerings.

German and Asians have been on a BIG down slope when it comes to Design/quality IMO. If I was to name one country that has been coming out with the most turds ever it would probably have to be Germany.

GM is BY far one of the most improved companies past 4-5 years....right next to Hyundai.

Just me though....

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IMO American products have already surpassed many of Asian and European offerings.

German and Asians have been on a BIG down slope when it comes to Design/quality IMO. If I was to name one country that has been coming out with the most turds ever it would probably have to be Germany.

Examples?

 

I drive a lot of different cars on a regular basis. I do like the 300C for the money, I very much like the Fusion, Edge and Flex but not enough to own any of them. C6 is great (incredible really) bang for the buck and hot looking IMO, and the G8 isn't American so doesn't count.

Other then those vehicles there isn't a damn thing I like about the big three cars and I've driven most of them. The US cars get better but stay 5-9 years behind the Japanese and German cars. They may look good on paper but get out and spend some time behind the wheel and your opinion may change.

I haven't personally driven the Sky or Astra so I can't speak for those.

 

I think the US automakers have brought this upon themselves. And unfortunately, it happened because Americans run it all. Think about it. We as Americans are lazy, greedy, arrogant, and never responsible for our own actions. Management of the unions and the automakers have these qualities, and therefore the companies themselves do. No wonder they are failing (failed.)

Ford seems to be making huge efforts to become viable in the world market. They finally realized that you can't make great cars in Europe and shitty copies to sell to Americans. The Fusion, Flex and Mustang seem to be great cars, and the new Fiesta is just what we need at the moment.

GM had a couple great cars like the Corvette and the CTS. But they had so much other crap dragging them down, they may drown before they can cut off the dead weight and surface again. GM really needs to focus on Chevy (main lineup), Caddy (luxury brand) and Buick (mostly to satisfy the fact that Buick is huge in China.) Ditch everything else and stop making 5 versions of the same crap and focus on making ONE great car.

Chrysler's only hope I think is with Fiat. I think they understand that they need to make quality cars. With Fiat's backing, they might survive long enough to bring those cars to market. If they fail to bring good cars to market, they are done. Plus, with the Fiat buyout, we'll get Fiats and Alphas in the US again. (Good or bad? Good... I think.)

 

Good Riddance, I feel sorry for the $70.00 p/hr windshield installer, tho.

 

You know, GM made some critical mistakes on a number of things. I'm not defending them on these critical mistakes. But what really killed GM was the average American consumer.

Somehow, people got this notion hammered into their heads that Japanese cars are leaps and bounds ahead of American cars, and that American cars are unreliable pieces of crap that get terrible gas mileage. Even when presented with facts, people refuse to believe them. Seriously, after driving my rental Galant and Sentra, I see absolutely no way in which their American competitors are worse (aside from the Aveo, which is a real pile of shit).

America is also turning away from having real driver's cars, and focusing on making fuel efficient tools that transport people from point A to point B with nothing eventful in between. For people like me, the prospect of cars like the G8 or the Corvette disappearing is eternal damnation into the drivers seat of a Honda Civic. Sure, there will be other cars to fill the gap, but nothing can replace the rumble of a V8 as it flies through the twisties. And America does not appreciate that, and that makes me sad.

I hope Chevy stays around as an independent company, at least. And that they rebadge the G8 as something awesome.

I just got this message from my friend...
(4:32:46 PM) Bronko [Work] (AIM): It's a sad shame, but I'll be sure to billow out as many noxious fumes as I can from my 5.4L supercharged V8 when I'm not fixing it after it breaks down every other day, cause it's still better than being a fucking tool and driving a Camry.

 

. But what really killed GM was the average American consumer.

Blaming the customer? Did you read the Circuit City thread awhile back by chance?

 

GM self-destructed:

Hall of Shame
Vega
Corvair
Cavalier
Cimarron
Lumina Van
Uplander
Aztek
Grand Am
Ion
Sunfire
Catera
Aztek
Lacrosse
'new' Malibu
Hummer

ad nauseum

 

you forgot:

chevette
spectrum and spectrum turbo
geo as a whole
saturn
the saturn V6 which was shared with the catera and a pain to work on
celebrity to a certain degree, especially the "euro" edition
lumina car early design, especially the euro and sport.
monte carlo- any 95 and on.
malibu 97 and on

and most of all. Taking all their trucks/suv's, rebadging them as isuzu, and them actually selling somewhat.

 

Thanx forgot about that turd Chevette

 

1. Rental cars: you don't typically find good cars as rentals at the big fleets, there's a reason they buy cheap cars in mass. One of the reasons the Taurus was the best-selling car in America was the number of them in rental and corporate fleets. You still see a lot of them driving around with serious paint-peel too.

2. The GM shit list: All manufacturers make bad cars, but because these are US-based, we get to see them. How many crappy cars are built overseas that don't get shipped here because they know Americans won't buy them, or because they won't pass US safety standards?

3. American impressions: Let's see, I believe it was our leaders in the 80s who kept telling us how the Japanese economy was going to kill us, and their work ethic was better than ours, and their quality was better than ours. Then the Japanese economy went into the toilet for awhile, but only after we'd been brainwashed.

4. Fuel efficient tools: For most drivers, that's what they want and need. It's like computers, most folks just need an appliance that works with little to no maintenance, or brainless maintenance. As much as they thrill on ads of swoopy cars, they really need something that runs every day without help because they don't have the time to mess with it, and nobody has the money to spend on repairs and maintenance.

This board is 180 degrees opposite. While we want cars that work, we really want cars we like - no, love. We want a car that fits our driving styles and personalities. The other 80% of Americans just want an appliance.

 

This board is 180 degrees opposite. While we want cars that work, we really want cars we like - no, love. We want a car that fits our driving styles and personalities. The other 99.9% of Americans just want an appliance.

Fixed.


Besides my previous post, I can also agree that the American consumer shares part of the blame as well. While many consumers switched to euro or asian brands, many Americans still bought the crap that the Big 3 shovelled upon us. If the consumer market was smart, they would avoid the crap, and the market would self-correct itself: Either build good stuff that sells, or go out of business because nobody is buying the crap.

Also, who's to blame for the glut of wasteful, gas guzzling SUVs, trucks, and large cars? The people buying them who don't need them (not counting businesses and people who actually need/use the capability of a truck or SUV), or the companies who put all their eggs in the SUV cash-cow basket without having a backup for when the SUV market imploded?

Like you said, people who hang out on forums like this are generally the vast minority. We are not the typical American consumer of automobiles. The typical American consumer is a stupid ass. And as long as the insane run the assylum, we are going to have to suffer with a market that caters to them. Europe and Asia are not perfect either, but sometimes I wish I lived there, and not here.

 

It's really just marketing and keeping up with the Jones's. Too many people are hooked on big SUVs, trucks, and AWD. Got to have it or one will not be safe.

BTW, Ford was the company that made the Excursion and they are still in business without government help.:icon_eek:

 

I'm still trying to figure out why the OP blames Barack. GM was in trouble long before Barack became president. Plus we're in the land of free enterprise. I was against these bail outs in the first place. They haven't bailed anyonbe out. The bail outs made it possible for people to keep their forty foot yatch and vacation homes. The ones who need the bailing out have fallen by the wayside. I love this economy, it's bringing the housing market back to a reasonable rates, and its forcing companies to put out better products for less. That may do more to bail out the average Joe than anything else. We need to try GWB and fine haliburton for all those illegal contracts that they procurred overseas though that farse of a presidency that crippled us for 8 years. It's time to employ yourself and stop waiting for a job...

 

We need to try GWB and fine haliburton for all those illegal contracts that they procurred overseas though that farse of a presidency that crippled us for 8 years. It's time to employ yourself and stop waiting for a job...

Obama before election - we will do so
Obama post election - let the past be the past, move on to future

:lol:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-oEudd6AYM


saw this and immediately thought of this thread.

 

The gov't didn't doom Detroit by giving foreign manufacturers tax incentives to build here. There's more to it than that. I've heard some republicans (can't remember names) say that "regulation" killed Detroit. Someone help me what exact regulation choked them ? Safety ? Well safety sells so throw that crap out. Besides, SUVs, their high-profit vehicles don't fall into them. They just throw some air bags in some unsafe vehicles making them unsafe still.. Corporate Average Fuel Economy ? Again, trucks/SUVs don't fall under them.

"To be economical, the cars are all going to be tiny and light-weight.".. A 55mpg Jetta TDi is by no means "tiny or light-weight" If I recall correctly, it has a 5-Star Crash Rating. Going up in $$$, a car like an E350 CDI can get 40mpg with 5 people on board ? I know of no Asian diesels here at the moment to comment on their efficiency but I'm sure there are Accord/Camry diesels running around elsewhere in the world pulling 40 mpg. Everyone else can seem to do it. Why not here ?

Detroit had the chance when CAFE standards came to exist, to build what they're being asked to build now. They didn't want to. What happened to the EV-1 ? GM sued California's CARB and WON because they had a certain Texas oil man in their wings. Outcome ? EV-1's are pulled off the road and crushed. Hell they were all only available on closed-end leases - NO option to buy at lease end. They chose the quick buck today / fuck tomorrow attitude, and here they lie. Executive salaries and share-holder comfort were always priority over the assembly-line worker. Always was, always will be. My take is, other than on MAYBE a social issue or two, you'll not be able to discern a democratic administration from a republican.....

 

The gov't didn't doom Detroit by giving foreign manufacturers tax incentives to build here. There's more to it than that. I've heard some republicans (can't remember names) say that "regulation" killed Detroit. Someone help me what exact regulation choked them ? Safety ? Well safety sells so throw that crap out. Besides, SUVs, their high-profit vehicles don't fall into them. They just throw some air bags in some unsafe vehicles making them unsafe still.. Corporate Average Fuel Economy ? Again, trucks/SUVs don't fall under them.

Remember that Reagan and other Republicans cut back on CAFE standards and regulation, so you can't blame that. The Big Three got a free ride.