Do you have the original radio ?
How long does it take for the battery to go flat from fully charged ?

Fuse 37, maybe the amp is not being switched off.
Fuse 14 powers the CCM, the CCM keeps running after being switched off, after a timeout it goes into sleep mode and continues to draw a very small current.
The ECU and alarm system (if you have one) also continue to draw current. Total vehicle minimum current is about 30mA.

NOTE: 0.48A would take more than 5 days to discharge a fully charged 60 A/H battery.
NOTE: With the door open, the courtesy light should be on, this would draw about 0.25A - 0.4A, and the CCM doesn't go into sleep mode.

Any idea at what point these two systems may meet such that it may possibly explain why both of them are having shorting out?

This question is based on false assumptions.

There is probably a separate intermittent problem.

 

Hi, Tomvw.

Thank you for your response.

1.) The car has the original radio.
2.) The battery tends to go dead very fast. I know that's not very quantitative.
3.) This vehicle is a 2002 VW Passat 1.8t 4-cyl AWM engine vehicle.

Here are the caveats:

Fuse 37, while pulling a slight draw, appears to be a secondary issue. The real issue appears to come from Fuse 14. When Fuse 14 is removed, my Passat won't even attempt to start, but the massive draw is gone. It's like the starter wasn't getting any power. I also found this draw when checking against the frame of the car, which seems like the drawing is shorting out to the frame of the car. When I left Fuse 14 connected and managed to start the car, the alternator appeared to keep the vehicle running but it was having a really hard time. It appeared there was serious electrical issues associated with that short as the vehicle was running extremely rough, the lights in the dashboard were blinking, and it was as if all the sensors in the car were not feeding the right information -- if any -- to the computer.

The last test did seem to restore confidence that my last repairs did solve the mechanical needs of the engine. While the engine was running, while I was spelling what seemed to be gas fumes, I think that was the result of incorrect information being fed to to the computer. There wasn't any smoke and the engine -- overall -- sounded well. I didn't notice any oil leaking and the coolant seemed to be circulating well through the engine.

What I have now is a serious electrical issue surrounding the Fuse 14 circuit. I have a Bentleys manual and AllDataDIY account for my vehicle and was planning on digging in. Any ideas what might be going on based on the symptoms described?

Thanks again.

 

I wanted to add, there is also what sounds like a clicking or almost spark like sound coming from, or near, the ABS module at the front drivers side part under the hood, near the windshield but inside or under the unit. I noticed the ABS was supposed to be on a separate circuit but there is some sort of very odd sound that occurs while turning the key to ACC position. If Fuse 14 is gone, this behavior does not occur. It sounds very consistent each time.

 

This question needs to be answered properly.

How long does it take for the battery to go flat from fully charged ?

2.) The battery tends to go dead very fast.

This is not even an attempt to answer, and is totally meaningless.

 

With the car running, what voltage reading do you see at the battery?

 

its not fuse #14. the car won't start if you pull it.

 

If the car has relay #12, it won't start without fuse #14, but if it doesn't have Relay #12 it will start without fuse #14.
Relay #12 is a start inhibitor controlled by the alarm system.

 

I'm not able to easily start the vehicle without having my charger connected (Diehard portable series jumper). When the charger is connected, the voltage reads between 12.4-12.7. The battery seems to hold a consistent charge up to 12.0 volts after charging for several hours. When the vehicle is started and the jumpers are removed, the voltage quickly drops to around 10 volts and struggles difficultly to stay there. After the vehicle is stopped, I can watch the voltage reading on the battery literally count down to zero in a matter of a minute or so, it seems to drain that fast.

I have fuse #37 removed and, even with that removed, if Fuse #14 is connected, the battery is drained fast. Without Fuse #14, I don't even hear a relay when trying to start the car. When fuse #14 is connected, and the ignition is moved to the ACC position, I hear a sparking-like noise that seems to be a relay near the ABS module. This behavior is not observed when the fuse is removed.

Somewhere along the line, it seems a hot wire is grounding to the frame. I get the same voltage from the frame as I do the Negative Battery cable. I'm guessing I will need to look up how fuse #14 is connected from diagrams and track down where the change is occurring. Any ideas of possible causes? Thanks...

 

Most of what you have said doesn't make sense, and some of it isn't possible, do you have a problem or are you just playing games ?

The battery seems to hold a consistent charge up to 12.0 volts after charging for several hours.

If this is true, the battery or charger is faulty.

When the vehicle is started and the jumpers are removed, the voltage quickly drops to around 10 volts and struggles difficultly to stay there. After the vehicle is stopped, I can watch the voltage reading on the battery literally count down to zero in a matter of a minute or so, it seems to drain that fast.

If this is correct, the battery and charging system are both faulty.


Take the battery to a shop and get it tested, when they say it's faulty buy a new battery.
After fitting the new battery, check battery voltage with engine running and post the reading.

 

The battery is less than 5 months old. It's fine. My issue is specifically related to what appears to be either the CCM or the wiring therein. Would a faulty battery result in my vehicle pulling over 300mA while turned off, key removed from ignition, and doors closed?

My current observations:

1.) There is a clicking noise coming from inside the ABS module when the key is placed in the ACC position.
2.) I found my way to the Comfort Control Module and disconnected both wire harnesses, then placed Fuse 14 back in place. I found that my starter still did not work and requires both wiring harnesses plugged into the CCM in order to fire. I didn't think that was expected, but it appears the starter circuit relies on the pathway with the CCM.
3) I checked the alternator and grounding points, everything is good.
4.) My next steps are to measure draw against a full battery with and without the CCM connected to verify either the CCM or the wiring in route is the issue.

Any ideas?

Thanks...

 

Would a faulty battery result in my vehicle pulling over 300mA while turned off, key removed from ignition, and doors closed?

It might, the system won't work correctly with low voltage.

300ma would take about a week to flatten a good battery, forget about the drain through F14 and F37 until you have the battery and charging system working properly,
and they will probably take care of themselves.

A new battery can be faulty, and a faulty alternator can destroy a battery very quickly.

Stop wasting time, get the battery tested.
If you did the tests correctly, then the BATTERY IS FAULTY.

Make sure you have a good battery installed, and then check the charging system.
Your tests indicate a fault in the charging system, probably the alternator.

 

Concur with Tomvw
Brand new batteries CAN be faulty. I have personally purchased a few bad batteries in my days.
The battery may have a short between the cells. This can and does happen which can mimmick the very same problem you state.
The alternator also sounds suspect. There a number of things that go wrong with an alternator.
Test battery first. If found faulty, obviously replace the battery.
Second, test charging system.
Some auto stores will test the alternator for free.

 

I'm also going with Tom's recommendations. A good battery will not drop to 10V as soon as jumpers cables are removed, unless it is really depleated and not being charged, or the car has some kind of ultra-outrageous power drain. This would mean that both your alternator and battery being maxed out, trying to supply hundreds of Amps. That's unrealistic.

 

As strange as this might sound check both the positive and ground cables for resistance as they can look great with no corrosion seen but actually have internal corrosion and have caused many a starter and alternator to be replaced with no help.. By putting the jumpers on you might be overcoming the high internal resistance which again won't allow battery to receive full charge when removed.. Have the battery load tested after it's fully charged to make sure there is no internal short by any reputable store like Autozone or Pepboys and if you're showing high resistance thru your cables replace them ..

 

I'm going to get the battery tested tomorrow. I was able to get a vag-com cable and obtain the following print-out from my car below. After clearing all the DTC codes, the only one that came back was from Steering Wheel - Terminal 30, signal too low. None of the other codes came back.

While testing the radio and measuring different blocks, it indicated that "Ant Sw Output" has an open circuit. My sliding roof also no longer slides. Over the last several months, I've noticed it would sometimes move by itself slightly. The "Outside Air Temp" open circuit to B+ came back a couple times. The sensor does work. Removing the wire harness connecting the bumper/radiator circuit (to right of fan) connectors also resulted in the circuit coming back open so the short is further up the chain. I'm not sure if that would be enough to wreak havok on my battery. In performing output tests, everything appeared to be functional except the following items for CCM: "Interior Light", "Signal: Sliding Roof Open".

I removed part of the dash to examine the relays and fuses. The 20A fuse under "D 6" was blown. I replaced this fuse and it didn't blow again yet. I haven't attempted to restart the car. As soon as I charge the battery, it doesn't seem to hold a charge for anything. It has to be toast....I can't even really manage to get hardly enough voltage to start the car. In the most perfect conditions, I seem to only be able to drive a little of 12V between my jumpers and this battery.

Tomorrow, hopefully I'll have a good battery and I'll start my car for longer than 20 seconds for the first time in a while...

Any thoughts on these additional details?

Thanks again...


Vag-Com
"Address 01: Engine"
"Controller: 4B0 906 018 CM Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0010 Coding: 0016551"
"Shop #: WSC 03304"
"No fault code found. Readiness: 0110 1101"
" "
"Address 02: Auto Trans Controller: 3B0 927 156 AH"
"Component: AG5 01V 1.8l5VT USA 0810 Coding: 0001104"
"Shop #: WSC 03304"
"1 Fault Found:"
"18265 Load Signal: Error Message from ECU P1857 003 Mechanical Failure"
" "
"Address 03: ABS Brakes Controller: 3B0 614 111"
"Component: ABS/ASR 5.3 FRONT D00 Coding: 00021"
"Shop #: WSC 00028"
"No fault code found."
" "
"Skipping Address 15 Airbags"
" "
"Address 16: Steering wheel Controller: 1J0 907 487 A"
"Component: Lenkradelektronik 0003"
"Coding: 00118"
"Shop #: WSC 00028"
"2 Faults Found:"
"01336 Data Bus for Comfort System 37 10 Faulty "
"00926 Terminal 30"
"Address 17: Instruments"
"Controller: 3B0 920 927 B"
"Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V03"
"Coding: 07235"
"Shop #: WSC 00000"
"WVWPD63B82P187890 VWZ7Z0A4214473"
"4 Faults Found:"
"00779 Outside Air Temp Sensor (G17)"
"30 10 Open or Short to B+ Intermittent 01176 Key"
"07 10 Signal too Low Intermittent"
"01330 Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393) 49 10 No Communications Intermittent"
"01304 Radio"
"49 00 No Communications"
" "
"Address 19: CAN Gateway Controller: 6N0 909 901"
"Component: Gateway K< >CAN 0001 Coding: 00006"
"Shop #: WSC 00028"
"2 Faults Found:"
"01330 Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393) 49 10 No Communications Intermittent"
"01304 Radio"
"49 00 No Communications"
" "
"Address 46: Central Conv."
"Controller: 1C0 959 799 C"
"Component: 08 Komfortgerat HLO 0001"
"Coding: 00258"
"Shop #: WSC 00028"
"12 Faults Found:"
"01330 Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393) 53 10 Supply Voltage Too Low Intermittent"
"01336 Data Bus for Comfort System 37 10 Faulty Intermittent"
"00928 Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220) 54 10 Incorrectly Equipped Intermittent"
"00929 Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Passenger Side (F221) 54 10 Incorrectly Equipped Intermittent"
"00930 Locking Module for Central Locking: Rear Left (F222) 54 10 Incorrectly Equipped Intermittent"
"00931 Locking Module for Central Locking: Rear Right (F223) 54 10 Incorrectly Equipped Intermittent"
"00932 Electric Window Motor: Drivers Side (V147) 62 10 No or Incorrect Adjustment Intermittent"
"00928 Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Driver Side (F220) 27 00 Implausible Signal"
"01359 Internal Central Locking Switch: Passenger Side (E198) 27 10 Implausible Signal Intermittent"
"00929 Locking Module for Central Locking: Front Passenger Side (F221) 27 00 Implausible Signal"
"00930 Locking Module for Central Locking: Rear Left (F222) 27 00 Implausible Signal"
"00931 Locking Module for Central Locking: Rear Right (F223) 27 00 Implausible Signal"
"End "

 

Also, I ran the test again with the fuse for the radio connected (37). It initially detected a short circuit in front and rear speakers but after clearing the codes, it also didn't come back. It performed successfully for output tests also. It appears the circuit that controls the sliding roof isn't working as my switch no longer works. I'm guessing that may be on the same circuit as "Ant Sw Output" -- havent checked yet..

 

Has this car ever had water in the interior? Have you checked the condition of the CCM?

 

No water ever in interior that i can think of. I removed the CCM and inspected the wiring. Everything appears in order. The Vag-Com initially thought the databus was faulty at some point but the code never came back after clearing it. While measuring blocks, it indicated that Term 15 was powered on while vehicle was off and the CCM measured a consistent voltage of 11.8 V or so while key was in ignition.

 

You are wasting time checking anything else while you have a faulty battery and probably faulty charging system. These will play havoc with everything else.
Forget everything else until you have a good battery and charging system.

 

I purchased a battery charger today because the battery has been dead the entire time and AutoZone indicated I would need to bring it in with a charge to test the battery. The battery charger was a digital one, a bit nicer, at $59.99. It charged at 15A up to 65% with a voltage of 12.4V and then the Battery charger spit out "BATT BAD" and stopped. I re-connected it again and now the battery charger thought the battery only had 10% charge. After trying to charge again, it wouldn't budge past 17%. At that point I stopped. The battery is a Diehard Gold with a 3 year warranty. Sears said if they test it and its bad, they will replace it on the spot for free. I'm hoping my charging efforts at home is prima facie evidence that I should get a new battery from Sears tomorrow...

Hopefully my charging system is not damaged. I didn't return any additional error codes. I purchased a better multimeter, a circuit tester with light, and fuses with lit LEDs when they're blown to help troubleshoot the shorts. In any case, It's been a long time since I've got this vehicle to start and I've came from broken oil coolers and water pumps to this. I'll just be happy to get the car to start...

 

Absolutely. Fix the big issue first, then worry about the sunroof switch.

 

On separate note, I still have an oil leak at the intake hose running into the turbo and also a leak I haven't identified coming from somewhere near the rear crankshaft seal potentially but they are slight at this point. On a positive note, it looks like the coolant issues have been resolved from replacing the series of components before. I was happy to get the car back together. I figure one issue at a time...heh...

 

Without question, your battery is dead replace it. (Probably caused by faulty charging system)
Then check the alternator.

I figure one issue at a time...heh...

Definitely.
Scans will not give any reliable information until you have the above working correctly.

 

Sears replaced my Diehard Gold Battery today (730 CCA, manufactured last month) and I took it home and checked its charge. It was at 80%. I went ahead and charged it to 100%, I saw an immediate difference in this battery. It consistently maintained 16.0V while charging and didn't have any issues. The other battery barely made it to 12. I installed the battery in place in the car, connected the Positive lead, and decided to hook up a Multimeter inbetween the Negative lead and Negative terminal first.

With the car door open and key in the ignition, I was drawing a consistent pull of 0.750 amps or 750 mA. Removing fuse 37 did not change this. After I removed fuse 14, the amperage immediate dropped to 0.053 A or 53 mA.

Somewhere on the circuit tied to fuse 14, something is causing a draw of nearly 700 mA. I haven't tried starting the car yet and I can't start the car with fuse 14 removed. It appears the starter somehow ties through the circuit going to the CCM (which is on 14). I don't want to hook up my battery completely knowing a 700 mA pull will be draining it away.

I have my CCM exposed and my front dash removed. What would be good steps to track down this draw?

Thanks for everyones help...

 

I understand that fuse 14 also controls the sunroof and keyless entry. These two items do not work. Other features covered under the CCM work: power doors, locks, interior lights, etc. That may be a hint...


Leading up to this, the sunroof would open and close partially at random.

 

As I have stated earlier, all this crap you are talking about is mostly normal operation. The interior lights etc are running through fuse #14.
I am not wasting any more time on this crap before the alternator has been checked and fixed if faulty.

Then and only then do a scan and post the codes.

 

Update:

The alternator and charging system are good. Here were my observations:

1.) Attempted to start Passat, it didn't want to turn over. Before the car even started, the "STOP IMMEDIATELY Oil Pressure" light came on (even though its not supposed to at no RPM).
2.) I stopped and tried again. It started several seconds later but required effort.
3.) I heard really weird intermittent buzz sound coming from the ABS unit then a click from one of the relays under the dash. If I applied the breaks, it would cause the buzzing sound from the ABS unit to occur also.
4.) The vehicle was idling rough. It didnt seem to know if it was suppposed to rev up a bit or cut out a bit. I noticed the RPMs on the instrument panel were moving by itself slightly up and down. The engine may had been making a slight tick noise and things had a smell of being rather hot.
5.) After running for 10-15 minutes, the engine was right below half-way on the temp scale. White smoke began coming from the exhaust. This smoke smelled sort of like gas, it was fumes of that nature. As quite a bit began coming out, I stopped the car.
6.) After stopping the car, it sounded like a "tinkling" noise was coming from the exhaust where the engine was hot and cooling off. I also heard this same tinkling/boiling sort of sound coming from engine also (Similar to when your car has ran recently).
7.) I felt the upper radiator hose and it was really warm up to the point where it connects to the metal pipe that runs across throttle body. I squeezed it slightly and felt feedback of coolant flowing freely.
8.) I hooked up vag-com and took a scan. Then, tried to start the car again. It was just acted as if it were trying to turn over, no clicking just the engine trying to turn over. The power was fine.
9.) I checked my sunroof and keyless. I found it was all working and must had not been working before over the battery.
10.) I turned off the vehicle, shut the doors, turned off lights, removed keys, and hooked up multimeter to negative terminal of battery. It was consistently draw 0.327A.

Here are the vag-com faults that were found:

- Engine: 16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40): Implausible Signal - P0341 - 004 - No Signal / Communication
- Steering Wheel: 00926 - Terminal 30: 07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent
- Instruments: 01330 - Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393): 49-10 - No Communication - Intermittent
- CAN Gateway: 01330 - Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393): 49-10 - No Communication - Intermittent
- Central Conv: 01330 - Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393): 53-10 - Supply voltage too low - Intermittent
- Radio: 00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30: 07-00 - Signal too Low

Given, the battery was disconnected prior to the vehicle starting so that may explain the communication codes for CCM. The camshaft position sensor is new.

Questions
1.) What would cause white smoke from the exhaust that smells like gas? I'm assuming oil in the exhaust? Where would that come from?
2.) The buzzing noise from the ABS unit and clicking noise from the relay panel, would this indicate the relay may be bad? I wonder if that could be causing the excessive draw?
3.) What are potential causes for the vehicle not wanting to turn over?
4.) Would the camshaft position sensor be related to the rough idle and engine seeming to get hot? When I changed the timing belt, I made sure to line up the marks correctly, mark them, and rotate two full turns from the crankshaft after applying the belt. Could this be symptoms of timing being off in the engine?

If anyone can offer any advice, I would be very appreciative.

Thanks, Tomvw, for being patient with me....

 

Attempted to start Passat, it didn't want to turn over. Before the car even started, the "STOP IMMEDIATELY Oil Pressure" light came on (even though its not supposed to at no RPM).

I'm guessing you mean the starter was turning the engine over but the engine never fired up and ran. The STOP oil pressure will come on if you're cranking the engine for a long time but it never starts.

Voltage drops, fuse removal and battery disconnects can cause most of those codes. Clear the codes then drive the car a bit then scan to see what codes it's generating.

What's battery voltage with the engine off and with the engine running?

 

Steve in Chicago, I'll check voltage when I get off work and also run the car for a bit. It seemed the engine was starting to run quite hot although gauge showed temp at just below halfway point after idling for 15 minutes with occasional revving. I'll be sure to clear codes first (will need to do since I'm leaving battery disconnected until I solve the parasitic draw) and get a representative reading.

After spending a while doing research, these are a set of possible assumptions I've found. Do these make sense?

1.) What would cause white smoke from the exhaust that smells like gas? I'm assuming oil in the exhaust? Where would that come from?

My understanding is that oil, oil-mixed coolant, or brake fluid would result in a color other than white regarding smoke. It didn't smoke immediately at startup which may rule out head gasket. It could just be coolant dropped on exhaust while filling coolant or condensation. So, coolant or water would be white smoke. Also, there is quite a bit of oil sludge buildup at the intake hose going to the turbo thats a flange of sorts to turbine? It's the entrance on other side of exhaust towards front of car. Several of these hoses had oil build-up. I also found that I should check these hose and intercooler for excessive oil. Hopefully, its nothing serious. My next step is to start the vehicle and monitor temperature/smoke after addressing the camshaft sensor/possible timing/adapation. Vag-com also had measuring block diagnostics for engine that may yield useful data.

2.) The buzzing noise from the ABS unit and clicking noise from the relay panel, would this indicate the relay may be bad? I wonder if that could be causing the excessive draw?

My research led me to believe this is the noise when the ABS unit engages. There apparently are two wires in their connected to a ring that are known to go bad. When this happens, the wires may meet causing a short resulting in the ABS unit engaging at random times. The clicking under the dash seems to just be the relay firing. I don't think the ABS unit is involved in my excessive draw on battery. However, I did read several places where the "STOP" light on the dash-board is erroneously displayed with the ABS unit shorts out. I also read this short could interfere with communications of other components on the CAN bus. My next step is to open the ABS unit and inspect the wiring.

3.) What are potential causes for the vehicle not wanting to turn over?

My research found that if my timing is off from my timing belt not aligned correctly or if my camshaft sensor is bad/wiring issue, this would definitely cause issues with getting the vehicle to turn over. My next step is to remove the timing cover and inspect the marks to make sure they are aligned on the camshaft and crankshaft. Then, make sure the camshaft sensor is connected properly and check its voltage/wiring.

4.) Would the camshaft position sensor be related to the rough idle and engine seeming to get hot? When I changed the timing belt, I made sure to line up the marks correctly, mark them, and rotate two full turns from the crankshaft after applying the belt. Could this be symptoms of timing being off in the engine?

It appears there is a Throttle Body Adaption and EGR (for exhaust and fumes) adaption that should be performed whenever the battery is disconnected. I can do this with my VAG-COM. Apparently, many people see idling issues after disconnecting the battery. My next steps are to perform this adaption and see if anything changes then look at spark plugs, vacuum, and other related components.
--------
Regarding my excessive draw at Fuse 14, I'm going to start by checking amps at fuse 14 terminal with vehicle off and follow that path to the short. I may jump ahead and see if its hot directly at the CCM wiring harness.

I'm putting forth a lot of effort to try and not simply come here and ask questions without due dilligence. Hopefully what research I have done may contribute to someone elses case.

Question
1.) Any feedback on what I've came up with regarding possible causes and next steps?

Thank you!