By the end of the day he was stranded at work until he and a coworker popped the clutch.

I don't understand the relevance of this statement, but it should be noted that a manual car won't crank unless the clutch is fully pressed.


A faulty fuse #6 or #14 can prevent cranking.
Fuses #32 and #34 can't prevent cranking, and I doubt that fuse #43 could.
I don't know what you have done/bumped but you can expect the condition to return.

 

Maybe. All I know is that he has been running all over town today without a single issue

 

By "popped the clutch," I assume you mean they push-started it. It is possible they jiggled a bad connection. I agree with Tom that the problem could still recur.

 

Yes, they pushed started it. That got him home. As soon as he turned the car off, nothing. Couldn't get it started again... no crank or nothing. We tried several times and got nothing. That's when I started pulling fuses that related to the CCM. Every time I pulled a fuse out, I checked it, cleaned it and put it back in. Then I would try to start the car. If nothing happened, I moved on to the next one. Started with #6, then 14, then 32, and when I got to 34 I pulled it out, cleaned it and put it back in. Tried starting the car and It started right up. Tried 5 or 6 more times and it started every time. I was sitting in the drivers seat the whole time I was pulling fuses. I didn't get out of the car, I didn't touch anything else, I didn't "bump" anything else and we are on day 2 now with no issues starting the car whatsoever. Maybe it's a coincidence... I don't know. But what I do know is that he had a car that wouldn't start and after cleaning fuse 34 it now starts. So for the 30 seconds it takes to pull that fuse and clean it at the cost of $0... if your car is having the symptoms ours was, then it's worth a shot.

 

has anyone attempted to manually jump the starter to see if the starter even functioned? it has a permanent 12V live to the back of it. a steel tool is all it takes to jumper/test it.

 

We didn't try that but probably would have been the next step. I've also read that the wires going into the CCM could get corroded caused by a clogged drain plug near the sunroof or battery that allows water to leak into the cab. I guess if those wires get corroded, it could cause the symptoms our car had.

 

right.

so, here's what you guys have done wrong here, in terms of diagnostic steps. (not saying this to be a jerk, but bear with me as i explain)

step one needs to be an examination of the object in question... starter doesn't start... nothing at all? hmm. odd.

step two - what makes the starter not work? do i have battery? check. if not, jump.

step 3) - batt is good... starter still don't start... - check for power supplied and switched at the starter.
-the starter will have two wires going to it. a big fattie for constant ALWAYS powered 12v and a small thin typically spade connector or something SWITCHED from the relay wire.

4) knowing now that you have 12v constant at the starter (if you do) then you need to check that switched input to the starter. PUT 12v DIRECTLY to where that small thin wire goes. does it spin over?

yes? - awesome! - now the headache is working backwards from here along that wire.
no? - your starter is toast. replace it. perfectly reasonable given these things age.

what i'm getting at is you guys are grabbing at straws over what is TYPICALLY or SEEN to be the problems.

you need to take a step back from diagnosing a ccm, swapping this with that, or whatever...
a plant grows from it's roots. you don't grow roots from a leaf and then think about a stem or body later.

if you don't follow a specific process starting AT the problem you will do what i learned a long time ago and wasted a LOT of time doing... diagnosing the wrong crap for the problem when i should have been in sequence.

please test your starter, and only just your starter and get back to us

 

I understand what your saying Sipes and Thankyou for the diagnoses steps on testing the starter. I don't understand why checking fuses first is a bad first test though. I wish I was more mechanically inclined and had the proper tools to do tests like that but Unfortunately I don't and therefore I have google for research, this forumn for questions and reading other people's recommendations and fixes and a friend that I go to when diagnosing is out of my scope of ability. Until I reach the point of having to bring the car to my buddy and ask him to take time out of his day, then I "waste" my time by doing some simple diagnosing that I can do. Fortunately this one has seemed to work as we are now on day 3 of no problems, I didn't have to bug my buddy, my son is happy because his new car is starting when he needs it to and I'm happy because my son is happy.... and it only took me a few minutes of my time. If the problem returns, then we will test the starter.

But my question to you is... if the car has started every time fir the past three days then ibviously the starter is good correct? So why go out and test the starter? I guess I'm just a bit confused as to why it was said that the steps I took to diagnose was a waste of time? It worked. Even if it started acting up again tomorrow, I wouldn't say my few minutes the other night was a waste of time...

 

sipes216
The opening post states that the car is cranking and starting on every attempt.
It would be a good idea to read posts before replying, with your limited knowledge it might be better to just not reply.


Jdm79
You are correct, the best place to start checking for a no crank issue is with fuses #6 and #14.

 

sipes216
The opening post states that the car is cranking and starting on every attempt.
It would be a good idea to read posts before replying, with your limited knowledge it might be better to just not reply.

the OP states the car USED to start and crank INTERMITTENTLY, and as of now the only way to start it is with rolling it downhill and popping the clutch into gear.
i did read.

and i certainly wouldn't really call my knowledge "limited" in this category. i work for vw, and bleed blue

anywho...

the car starting great for the past 3 days is great progress. the contact plate inside the starter solenoid may have a few "dead" spots where there are marks or wear pittings that cause it to not conduct in those instances. this will lead to the starter solenoid not doing it's job in the whole starting process. if it eventually gets off of that dead spot via engine vibration or whatever, then it can start working normally again... up until it lands back on that dead-spot. just be aware.

 

It does sound like some electrical connection may have been loose and by pulling fuses you made the connection a bit more snug. Or there happens to be a big coincidence in what you did and something else started working as it should.

I have done the same as you in other cars trying to fix different issues and like you. I've somehow made a loose connection tight again.

Not sure how you checked the fuses but you can't always go on looks alone. They may look good but the filament (that bridges the gap between the 2 legs/blades) might not be connected. Therefore they appear to be good but there not. Get a multi meter (it will help a lot) or a simple 12v test light and check the fuses

If you think or suspect that the CCM has gotten wet you need to look up the link about water intrusion. It's a very common problem

 

Just to clear up any confusion... last Thursday, the car started to intermittently no crank no start. My son would have to try a few times to get it to crank at which point it would then start. It progressively got worse throughout the day (meaning it took more tries of turning the key to get it to crank and start). By the end of the night he could not get it to crank at al, no matter how many times he tried. He popped the clutch or jumped the clutch or whatever you call it it to get it started and drive home. Once he parked in the garage and shut it off, it would not crank again. After cleaning the fuses it started right up. He only had to use the clutch that one time to start it. Since those fuses were cleaned up on Thursday night he has had NO problem getting the car to crank and start on its own using the key. Today marks 4 days of normal starting.

 

I am assuming when you mean No crank/ nothing. You are meaning it was dead? As in no power/noise after turning the key to start. kinda like if your battery was disconnected or dead?

If that's the case then it does indeed sound like you had a faulty electrical connection that involved the ignition on the column preventing power from going any further down the line and messing with the fuses corrected it.

Snipes216. How would one check the contact plate, if it were pitted or what not wouldn't the OP have had the issue happen again within the 4 days?

Just trying to learn more about issues/fixes people have had.

 

There are many possible causes such as ignition switch, relay #12 or #13, or more likely in your case corrosion in the CCM wiring or connectors.
I suggest you carry a jumper to jump relay #12 when it happens again.

 

...I got to fuse #34 and it wasn't blown either. I cleaned it up, put it back in and heard the car make a subtle noise.

By "subtle noise" do you mean similar to the sound of a relay clicking when 12V is applied to the switched side contacts?

"A fuse 'contact wiped clean' and a bump-start got me on my way..." <- that's something you'll never hear from a Tiptronic owner.

 

also, i kinda got sidetracked in talking and what-not.

i wanted to clarify what i meant about "waste of time"

i do not mean to say you are wasting your time by checking fuses. that's actually a good point i should have put in there "if you know the fuses are good" bullet before i went into detail and counter-troll operations.

checking fuses is GREAT. as said above, sometimes they are shot without being visibly toast.

the greatest point of this whole repair procedure is not that it is fixed, but you know HOW and WHY it is fixed.

my 2002 silver blue b5.5 sedan i loved so much is LITERALLY the reason i got involved in tech school training, and pretty much why i'm at where i am today. i remember an $800 bill for motor mounts at boardwalk volkswagen in richardson, tx, in the summer of 2006 and thinking DAMN that bill sucks!

then i got to playing... then i got to researching...

now i sell service as an advisor. i could just tell customers "your junk's fixed, come pay for it!" but if they don't know and understand what is done, they're just giving their money away because i asked for it. knowledge is the big deal here.

i miss it

 

also, i kinda got sidetracked in talking and what-not.

i wanted to clarify what i meant about "waste of time"

i do not mean to say you are wasting your time by checking fuses. that's actually a good point i should have put in there "if you know the fuses are good" bullet before i went into detail and counter-troll operations.

checking fuses is GREAT. as said above, sometimes they are shot without being visibly toast.

the greatest point of this whole repair procedure is not that it is fixed, but you know HOW and WHY it is fixed.

my 2002 silver blue b5.5 sedan i loved so much is LITERALLY the reason i got involved in tech school training, and pretty much why i'm at where i am today. i remember an $800 bill for motor mounts at boardwalk volkswagen in richardson, tx, in the summer of 2006 and thinking DAMN that bill sucks!

then i got to playing... then i got to researching...

now i sell service as an advisor. i could just tell customers "your junk's fixed, come pay for it!" but if they don't know and understand what is done, they're just giving their money away because i asked for it. knowledge is the big deal here.

View attachment 72850

i miss it

I have the exact same car and spend nearly same for work at VW Richardson, Worst one was the SAIP which was like ~$1300. Fortunately, some part of that was picked up by the extended warranty. Even though i bought this warranty from VW, i had to tell them to check it and then he said, oh yeah, we can use it. Real bad experience was with Wiper "chattering". It was doing it within warranty period and they said it is ok. Once the warranty is expired, then got a list of items to change to fix it. Fixed it with new aftermarket wiper blades.

 

a lot of their advisors were good, BACK IN THE DAY. i in no way support them now.

but that's not just because i work for another

 

Ok Sipes... you were right. Today marks one week since the "fix" and my son goes to leave for school and it won't start. Same symptoms as before, power to everything but no crank when we turned the key. I pulled that fuse again, of course my logic told me to since that worked last time, put it back in and nothing. So I tapped lightly but firmly on the fuse box and lower dash under the fuse box and this time it started. Tried a few more times and started every time. So now I'm thinking a lose connection at the fuse box? I know your going to tell me to test the starter but honestly I'm not mechanically inclined enough to do that. I suppose I can take it to a mechanic if I have to and I will if I need to but we just bought two of these damn things so money is really tight right now and I'm trying to avoid the cost of a mechanic. Thoughts?

 

Re-read posts 2 and 16.

 

Forgive me for I'm just trying to learn some things. But if you tap something and it suddenly starts to work, doesn't that scream loose connection? For example... tap the fuse box and car now starts, how could that be an issue with starter? The starter is nowhere near the fuse box. Or the ignition switch... that's not near the fuse box either. Logic tells me it should be something to do with or around the fuse box... what am I missing?

 

The whole point of diagnosis is to *definitively* determine where the fault is. The alternative is to keep jiggling stuff and seeing some result, and then inferring that it's near there. It could very well be a problem with the ignition switch that somehow goes away when you jiggle wires near the fuse panel. Or somewhere else.

This will be so much easier to troubleshoot when it doesn't crank and you perform basic diagnosis. You don't need any special equipmnt. Maybe a multimeter and some jumper cables.

 

The whole point of diagnosis is to *definitively* determine where the fault is. The alternative is to keep jiggling stuff and seeing some result, and then inferring that it's near there.

amen!

i STILL don't want to rule out an intermittent starter just YET... sometimes they could get jiggled just enough by getting in and out as a 170lb guy to make it just barely kinda work just enough... however it could all the same be a loose connection in the fuse box itself. i would still want to probe for 12v power when ignition switched when you have the car in a position where it is at that time NOT starting.

if anything else, this will narrow down that the starter 100% is or is not at fault.

also if you wanted to go to the interior route first, you could pull the driver bolster down, it's like 4 t27 screws that hold it up and in place, and then the obd connector has a single screw IIRC.
after the bolster is down, i can't remember how teh cover is on the back of the fuse panel, but you should be able to see at that point how ever thing looks, and you should be able to jiggle test all of the connections from the backside and determine if maybe it's got an out of shape clip.

i had this happen to a beetle at work, but for it's right side turn signals.

and then the most important middle step we are all not yet mentioning... the best ABSOLUTE BEST thing you can do for you and your son is to go over to bentley publishing, and purchase the book for your year range of car.
it has wire diagrams, oem factory repair procedures... it's TONS better than a random shot in the dark. TRUST ME on that.

 

I wish I I knew exactly what your talking about "jumper", "prove for 12v power"??? If I could do those things while it's not starting, I would. Unfortunately I don't know how and in order for me to get it to the mechanic when it happens, I would have to juggle something to get it down there... but then of course the problem won't be happening for the mechanic. Ugh

 

he means a piece of wire to literally jump the two terminals. if you're not big on auto repairs or relays, absolutely DO NOT DO THIS. there may be a high likelihood of arc-ing the wrong terminals... and a very bad day ensuing.

if you feel confident that you can safely and successfully jump that terminal, that's fine... but i would never tell a customer that isn't car savvy to do this. it's asking for burned up stuff.

 

Ok. So do you guys have a link to the Bentley book?

 

I think I found but just want to make sure... there's lots of options. It's says service manual 2 book edition. $149.99?
VW - Volkswagen Passat Service Manual: 1998-2005  -  Bentley Publishers - Repair Manuals and Automotive Books

 

As I have said before, it will return, there are many possibilities, and considering what you have reported it is most likely a CCM/Alarm fault.

A full scan with VCDS or similar would be a good starting point.


You could try this:
Remove the covers from the relays in positions 12 and 13. Make sure to put them back in their original positions. (they are very different)

Next time it won't crank (try to avoid touching the floor), do the contacts of both relays close when the ignition is switched to start (and it doesn't crank) ?


There is no Bentley manual on line, you would need to buy one.