why did they move back to 16v? i thought that the 20v idea was ingenious and that way the engine could handle more boost? i hope what your saying isn’t true but it all makes sense to me and unfortunately might be true

 

the 20v head is a very OLD design that doesn't even belong to VW. it's actually an audi design.

the only reason VW is using that motor is because their own 16v 2L was not ready for production when the Mk4 debuted.

back to topic....

i don't see why it would end chipping.

The way software is written from manufacturers is so to accommodate a broad range of markets with varying climates, fuel grades, and general environments. that being said, there's always room to adjust and specialize fuel maps, boost maps, and ignition maps.

That the new systems make more power out of the box only means that they're working more efficiently and are capable of much more power when specialized software is applied.

further, what does using a 4valve head over an old 5valve design have to do with chipping ability?

there's lots of 4 (and even some 3) valve heads available on the market that outflow the VW/Audi 5valve head quite easily.

granted, perhaps hardware modification may be more difficult and costly, seeing as how the equipment is being consolidated and more and more parts are becoming more integral.

but i really don't see why anyone would think software tuning would be dead...

 

why did they move back to 16v? i thought that the 20v idea was ingenious and that way the engine could handle more boost? i hope what your saying isn’t true but it all makes sense to me and unfortunately might be true

The center spot is need for the injector.

 

im with twolitervw on this one. although the engine might be harder to tune, i doubt it will be unchippable

 

Heck, don't most diesels have 2 valves?

 

For old school Dubbers, you may remember the Collins Report. It was a tech article on how to build the old 8V motors. He breifly talks about the "new" 16V motors that were being put in MKII's and MKI Sciroccos. This is just a short part of it:

***********************************************************
DON'T (read that again DON'T) get a VW 16v. They are absolutely junk. If you saw the insides of one, you would puke. It is a dead-player for high performance. The exhaust valves are top-dead-center over the combustion chamber, and make a 95-degree bend around to exit the head. BAD! Furthermore, suppose you buy the motor, you would need the fuel and spark management systems. The intake and exhaust manifold from the Scirocco (to fit your cars layout). The distributor. In all, it would take a couple of thousand dollars (on top of the motor) to make it all work CORRECTLY. And, like I mentioned, it is a performance DOG. At 123hp (US spec), it is a weak puke of a motor. I would recommend putting bigger valves in your current head. And, it is not much of a surprise that Drake is the only company I know of that does that. Sure, many companies make big valve heads, but for the GTI? No. This is because big valves for GTI's need to be custom made, and Drake is the only ones willing to do that. If you are intent of a 16v, here are some further things to consider:

VW's 16v: 123hp (US), 139 hp (European), 196hp (racing European)
I estimate, $4500 to make it all work.
Oettinger 16v: On a 1600cc motor 135hp, 2liter 170hp, 220hp racing.
I estimate 6500 to make it all work.
Drake 16v: Ah, you didn't know drake made a 16v for the VW did you?
170hp on a 1600cc motor, and no dyno figures for a streetable 2liter motor. But as you can see, the Drake is MUCH more powerful than Oettinger. And, 290hp (racing 1900cc). I estimate, 7000 to make it all work.

**********************************************

Anyway, my point is this; The 16V motor came around, people built it and and now its a very popular motor for engine conversions. After market parts are available and the reality is, the motor screams if built right.

The new motor WILL get speed parts, guaranteed, as long as the demand is there. Turbo upgrades, chips, this and that. Its all up to us for a demand.

PS: I have the Collins Report in a text file. PM me if you'd like to email you a copy.

 

that may be true, but by comparison to other 16v motors available from other manufacturers, the VW 16v is still junk.

i'm as big a fan of VW as the next guy, and i've built PLENTY of motors of varying displacements and generations.... but that doesn't stop you from seeing the truth.

sure there's tons of stuff available, and sure there's potential to work on them.

but if you look at the competition, it's still not impressive.

just because people work on them doesn't make it a good thing...

 

the only thing that is going to dicate chip/no chip is whether there is extra margin in the turbo and fuel system.

Actually the turbo looks to be integrated into the manifold so if anything the H/W mods will be more difficult than the S/W.

VWAG and others are getting tricky with ECUs physical design as well, requiring special tools to re-program (ie no simple chip pull).

Some of the diesel cars have a new generation of ECU, these have already been "cracked"...can't imagine the new gas ECUs will be any different. :wink:

 

I agree with TwoLiterVW.
In Germany, chip companies are already chipping TDI Golf V with direct injection ports (+30 hp gains),4 valves, etc.

 

This is what wett is doing to the Direct injection 2.0T

power: 200 hp at 5500 rpm to 241 hp at 5500 rpm
torque: 204 ft/lbs at 1800 rpm to 248 ft/lbs at 1800 rpm
top speed: 139 mph to 143 mph

I say it's chippable... :lol:
:crazy:

 

that's diesel. and it's about on-par with the other chip tuners for the new PD diesels.

 

as long as the car is run by a comptuer some one can write better code for it

it will be harder and harder as they get more complex but its pretty complex now and people are doing it so i dont see what the big deal is.

 

The first 5V per cylinder application I know is Yamaha's FZ750 in 1985. And Honda in the raced in GP500 and sold one uber streetbike with oval pistons and 8V per cylinder...

:lol:

 

that's diesel. and it's about on-par with the other chip tuners for the new PD diesels.

VW has a 200hp diesel?

 

sort of.

they have high output diesels (PD series) and with software upgrades they make 200hp.

you can read all about them in the Golf magazine (UK publication) for june or july (might have been as late as august, though).

they did a special on all of the 200hp TDis available from various chip tuners on the other side of the pond.

 

that's diesel. and it's about on-par with the other chip tuners for the new PD diesels.

This is not Diesel.

This is the 2.0 TFSI petrol engine now available in the A3, the soon to be in the facelifted A4, and the GTI.

VW does not have a 2.0 TDI with a standard output of 200Hp.

Cheers.

 

if all they're getting out of the 2.0T is 200hp, then it's pretty weak.

i was assuming you were referring to the simlar displacement diesels that are available in europe which can achieve 200hp with software tuning only.

 

Slap shot I am glad that you are already putting great thought into what will be possible for upcoming VWs.

You demonstrated the thought process that is needed when modding a new Vehicle.

1. The question you had was basically: Does the FSI (direct injection gas) engine have any limitations that restrict raising of the output?

2. The second question was basically: With the reduction in the number of intake valve will this result in lower horse power potential?


Basically the answer to you question # 1 has been answered many times.

when I read the question I immediatly thought of the TDI engine which basically uses the same technology. They are tunable so the Gasoline version should also be able to be tuned.

The second question that you had was about the move from 5 to 4 valves.
The 5 valve head was designed by Oettinger back in the early 90's and Audi designed an engine to utilize this technology. The truth is that the configuration for the head was always for forced induction. Even back in 92 when a prototype of the engine and head were displayed in a VW corrado in the Oettinger booth at one of the European auto shows.


The number of valves really doesn't make a difference. What makes the diffence is mass or weigt. A single larger valve can flow the same amount of air but the mass of the valve will restrict the speed at which the valve can reciprocate ,as well as leading to higher valve train mass, require heavier springs to control the motion, which trickles down to requiring more force to turn the assembly (basically more drag) All of which cost fuel economy/efficiency.

So it is easier to add more valves with a lighter weight that makes it easier to sustain higher rpms with less wear on the moving parts even though there is more moving parts.


The comments about the 16v valve VW head for the mid 80's to mid 90's are very truthful if not brutally honest. Basically the 16v head was designed as just that a head that could be bolted on to the existing block of an 8v. This created many problems in the way of relialbility since 16v heads were known for common failing head gaskets because there was so little material left to bolt the head to the block securely also oil seal problems and other little finicky items.


I am not so concerned about the engine choices of the upcoming VWs I am concerned about the durability and longevity of the new automatic tranmissions because I plan on buying another automatic and I know that VW automatic transmissions have been known for their high rate of failing.

 

if all they're getting out of the 2.0T is 200hp, then it's pretty weak.

i was assuming you were referring to the simlar displacement diesels that are available in europe which can achieve 200hp with software tuning only.

I guess my response was unclear. I will put the chipped text in red.

power: 200 hp at 5500 rpm to 241 hp at 5500 rpm
torque: 204 ft/lbs at 1800 rpm to 248 ft/lbs at 1800 rpm
top speed: 139 mph to 143 mph

Cheers

 

Bobafet have a little patience with the Pad u won learner.

Impatient he is

 

Bobafet have a little patience with the Pad u won learner.

Impatient he is

I was patient. I hope I didn't sound impatient. If I did, sorry. I just thought my post seemed abit unclear after I looked at it a second time.

Cheers

 

that's diesel. and it's about on-par with the other chip tuners for the new PD diesels.

This is not Diesel.

This is the 2.0 TFSI petrol engine now available in the A3, the soon to be in the facelifted A4, and the GTI.

VW does not have a 2.0 TDI with a standard output of 200Hp.

Cheers.

Thank You! The direct approach would have been quicker :wink: