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Front tires cupping - what's my best option?

3.9K views 7 replies 4 participants last post by  bill1975  
#1 ·
2004 1.8T 50,700 miles. Toyo Proxes FZ4 225/45/17 (installed at 27,700 miles rotations every 5,000-10,000 miles)

About 1200 miles ago (maybe 3 weeks) after rotating my tires I noticed some noise, mostly at higher speeds (60 mph and above). I took a look at the tires and it appears the insides of the tires are wearing unevenly. The "blocks" of tread alternate higher and lower, which from what I've read is whats called "cupping". I think its related to my alignment issues after I had the car lowered back in January.

The car drives ok though it seems maybe I can feel a bit more resistance, but not much, it's mainly the noise that is driving me crazy. Short of buying new tires, I figure I can either rotate the front tires to the back and keep them there to eliminate the noise, but this will make my fronts wear out much quicker. OR I can take the two front tires and swap them right to left, which would involve having the tires taken off the rims and remounted on the other side. This would put the cupped portion on the OUTSIDE which I would think would minimize additional cupping and hopefully get rid of the noise (which is my biggest problem). I dont know if this would work but Im basing my theory on the fact that I have negative camber in the front so the outsides wear less. I know once they start to wear that way there's not much you can do short of getting the tires shaved and I wouldn't know how to go about getting that done.

As far as I can tell the rest of my suspension is in good shape. I know the sound is sometimes a possible bad wheel bearing, but the sound started immediately after the rotation and doesnt change when turning the wheel. I had all four wheels rebalanced last week and it didn't change anything.

Which one of the two ideas I listed is best? (Or is neither a good option?)
 
#3 · (Edited)
I had an alignment done after lowering. Thing is, I think I may have waited too long to do this and this may be related. After getting lowered, I drove about 900 miles and rotated, got the alignment 700 miles later. after lowering but before the alignment I had a wobble at high speeds that went away after I rotated the wheels. The wheels that were up front after lowering when I had the wobble were rotated to the back and are now up front again. I know I probably waited too long to get an alignment. I rack up miles quickly. between 400-500 a week.

Im guessing they started cupping when I had the wobble issue OR when they were rotated to the back. If they started cupping when they were rotated to the back end, I dont see how an alignment would correct it (my car is FWD).

To my knowledge the rest of my suspension is ok. PZ did my install and later did some adjusting to the front. I think we took a good look at it then and everything looked fine. No play in the steering. After I got the alignment done (In January) everything was in spec except front camber. The shocks feel fine. If they are bad it should feel feel bouncy.

EDIT - just looked at tie rod ends everything looks fine, the boots have not separated and there are no signs of split boots, no grease splattered everywhere. I jacked up the front of the car and checked both wheels and there is no play in any direction.
 
#4 ·
Tips.

Once tires cup they are going to continue to remain loud. Based on my expierence directional tires tend to be the most prone to cupping.

A couple of tips. The more negative camber on an alignment is typically best for handling, but also wears the inside shoulder of the tire. A camber of 0 to negative 1 is best for tire wear. Once the alignment has been check and evey thing is mechanically sound with the car.

The other key is most people typically dont rotate there tires often enough. I would recommend every 5,000 miles. This help from establishing uneven wear patterns on the tire. Once they happen you cant stop it.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=43

Also if your wearing the shoulders of the tires try more air pressure in the tires. Typically 5 more psi then the VW recommends can help with this.

-R
 
#5 ·
Thanks Rudy. My tires are a 35 PSI per VW's recommendation. I can try 40 psi. Before I got lowered I rotated every 10,000 and since lowering I am on 5,000 mile rotations. Unfortunately I can't adjust the camber. I think the front camber is at -1.7 or something near that, its pretty far out of spec.

Any advice as to whether swapping the right and left tires (so the cupping is on the outside) will help?

Also, Im still trying to determine what caused it. As far as i can tell all my suspension components are ok. I tend to thin kit is from driving with my alignment out of spec after getting lowered.
 
#7 ·
Bill, it seems to be a combination of the directional tire (which tend to cup a little eaiser) and the Front camber of the car.

The camber takes the top of the tire and is tilting it in towards the car. This is putting the inside shoulder of the tire on the ground and lifting the outside shoulder slightly off the ground. Basically the inside shoulder is doing most of the work which leads to cupping.

I do think swapping the cupping to the oustside should help with the noise untill that shoulder cups.

-Rudy
 
#8 ·
So, in the off chance that anyone's interested, or in case this thread comes up again in a future search - I had the front tires dismounted and swapped to the opposite side , so the front right tire is now at the front left, and the front left at the front right, which means the cupped inside portion is now on the outside. Having done that I got a look at it and there was some very noticible cupping.

The sound has gone away not entirely but is GREATLY reduced. The ride also feels smoother. I could swear I felt some added "resistance" before. The steering feels a bit different, but I will give the tires a while to settle in. In 2,000 miles I rotate again. I checked the rears and there is some very minimal cupping on one tire but it is hardly noticible and not nearly as bad as the fronts. There was never any wierd noise or feel when the current rear wheels were at the front.

The guy at the shop where I got the work done also said that many times aftermarket wheels, even when they have centering rings aren't always a perfect fit and can sometimes contribute to cupping as well.

the tire sidewall says max inflation is 50psi and Im at 36psi. May try bumping all four tires up to 40 just to see what happens.