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B5 years to avoid?

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avoid years
6.4K views 38 replies 20 participants last post by  John_E  
#1 ·
Hey folks,

I just got referred here from Fred's TDIClub.

We have an '04 Jetta GLS TDI wagon (currently running B20, B99 in the warmer months) and would dearly love to have a Passat TDI as well (we need a second car). Problem is, we want a recent model Passat for ESP and side airbags but can't afford a TDI since they're only a year old or so.

So we're holding our noses and considering getting a gasser (apologies to you gas fans here :D). According to the Blue Book and edmunds we should be able to pay $14,000 or less for a 2002 GLS 1.8T wagon with a 5-speed.

My question is, are there model years of the B5 we should avoid? Does the gas engine have the same timing belt issues as the TDI had? How about general Passat reliability? Electricals ok? Any falling door windows?

If this has been thoroughly discussed in another thread, please let me know. Otherwise, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

--Eric S.
Portland, OR
 
#2 ·
Hi Eric. As a VW owner, nothing about the B5 should surprise you. Every model year had it's share of hiccups, but nothing out of the ordinary if you're used to owning VWs. The one thing that I would do if I were you is to be very careful about finding out how well the car you buy has been maintained. If you're looking for a 1.8t, make sure that it has all the maintanance records. I'd buy one that's never been modded in any way. I'd also want to verify that oil changes have been done religiously at no greater that 5000 mile intervals with synthetic oil.

Beyond that, buying used is always a roll of the dice. Just make sure the car you buy has good records. Oh, and YES, 1.8ts have the same timing belt issues as TDis. 60K replacement intervals.

Kenny
 
#3 ·
I have always been skeptical of the later models ie. post 2000. I read alot of reviews and have heard that these cars have alot of qualuty issues ie. leakes, electrical problems, door handles and mirrors falling off etc. I have a 98, the first B5 and it has been nothing but a tank, none of the problems I am hearing about from the later models,

I wonder if has something to do with VW builidng the phaeton factory in dresden and putting all the R&D into the phaeton and the W12. not cheap!

I wonder if they took anything out of the later models to finance the phaeton factory?
 
#4 ·
I have a '99 and '02. Both have been great but I think the '02 is better since many of the kinks accoicated with my '99 were removed in '02. Of course new problems were also associated with my '02 like bad coilpacks. But in general later years are better. You also have more options to pick from such as 4mo 1.8T., W8, etc.
 
#5 ·
With a 1.8T of any year passat, I want to see full records of oil changes with synthetic and the large oil filter. With the sldge issues thats the only way to get VW to pay to fix it. If the car doesn't have a full record account for the cost of a new 1.8T engine when buying.
All gas passats want a TB and waterpump change at 75k. VWoA's 105K is too long, follow VW's 75K. And its not a cheap or quick job.
I have a 02 V6 GLX FWD Tip with minimal issues if thats any guide.
If I had my way, i'd get a 04.5 W8 6spd wagon with a long, good extended warranty. However, they're all good cars.
 
#7 ·
I have one of the last B5s, built just before the B5.5 2001.5 facelift. From what I read, I have had better-than-average luck with mine.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Thanks so much all for the quick and helpful responses so far.

We went and drove the car this evening, it was a sweet ride. But now I need more help.

First, if you're interested enough, here's the car.

The essentials:
-- 2002 Passat GLS 1.8T wagon
-- stick shift
-- 43k miles
-- good condition, IMO
-- clean Carfax record

The dealer is asking almost $16k on their website, $14,888 in the classifieds. Edmunds estimates $11,899 for a private purchase and $12,923 for a dealer price. Blue Book says $12,540 for private purchase, $15,885 as dealer's negotiation starting point assuming excellent condition.

The sales folks were aggressive, but, as instructed here, I insisted on seeing the maintenance records. We left with them promising to see what they could dig up. It's a huge dealership (Dick Hannah in Vancouver, WA), and the reps will have to see exactly which division first bought it and from where.

I find it unfortunate that these dealerships can't tie into a central database that keeps track of what their service shops did to any VW in the country.

Anyway, here's my main question: If we're unable to locate the maintenance records on this car, do you guys think I should let this one go? What if we have a reputable non-dealership VW mechanic give it a thorough inspection? Still no go? How about if we get them to honor the sludge warranty?

I realize we're taking a chance on any used car and that you folks can't make the decision for us, but I've heard a couple of times now the importance of learning the maintenance history on this engine, and we have a couple of months before we have to have another car. Sure, 5-speeds are rare, but we might find another and we could even consider getting an automatic.

I'd also love your thoughts on the price. Provided we get the maintenance records or a mechanic's diagnosis is sufficient or they honor the warranty without the records, I'm thinking of sticking firm at $13,000 at most. Unrealistic?

Sorry for the length of this! And thanks again for the help.

--Eric
 
#9 ·
VWoA will not honor the warrenty w/out those record.
If you're buying from a dealer get in writing that they will fix the car for free should it sludge up.
If you can't do that I'd go for a sub-12 offer, take it to an indy to see what they think about the sludge. Buy it if you choose. Then auto-rx it for a good measure. then use VW approved oils with the large filter everyone 5k and you should be ok. Know that you are taking a large risk and account for taht in your price.
Thats not to say don't buy it, but be careful.
 
#10 ·
FWIW, here's the detail of the mileage reporting history from Carfax. There are a couple of long intervals there that make me nervous. I realize they could have taken it to Jiffy Lube in the interim and just not reported the mileage, but Jiffy Lube probably wouldn't have used the right oil, I'm assuming :banghead:

02/02/2002 NICB
Vehicle manufactured and shipped to original
dealer

02/02/2002 38mi California
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Los Angeles, CA
Title issued or updated
First owner reported
Registered as
personal vehicle

04/15/2002 1,759mi Service Facility
Vehicle serviced

12/19/2002 8,124mi Service Facility
Vehicle serviced
Engine serviced
Suspension system serviced
Lubed oil and filter changed
Electrical system serviced

02/14/2003 9,169mi Service Facility
Vehicle serviced

08/28/2003 16,554mi Service Facility
Vehicle serviced

11/26/2004 29,486mi Service Facility
Vehicle serviced
Lubed oil and filter changed
Brakes serviced

10/23/2005 42,094mi California
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Glendale, CA
Title issued or updated
New owner reported

12/14/2005 42,274mi Auto Auction
Sold at auction
in Pacific Region
Listed as
a dealer vehicle

--Eric
 
#11 ·
I have a 2002 V6 Tip and really love it. I have had no problems (knock on wood) . I do wish it would run smoother....there is a little vibration when stopped at lights etc. I change the oil every 3500 miles. Only one complaint...I wish the gas mileage was better. I would buy a Turbo next time....but maybe they have prolems....I don't know.
 
#12 ·
If they can provide records, I think that should be worth a little more than $13k. Remember, you have one website that says $13k, and another that is telling you $15.8k. I think that if they can find those records, that should be worth something. If this car appears to be in good shape, but they can't find the records, I'd offer $13k, but have the dealer pull the oil pan prior to purchase for sludge inspection. (And make sure you personally get to see it off the car.) If you can catch sludge before it slags your engine, it isn't a particularly expensive problem to fix.

SirWired
 
#13 ·
One of the reasons the car might have been sold at auction is because it is a MT5. Variants with the manual tranny are about the hardest Passat to sell, and dealers hate having cars collecting dust. I tried to buy one from the local Benz dealer, but not knowing VWs well, they gave too much on the trade and couldn't drop to the price where I was. If you take it to a respected indie who really knows VWs and it checks out okay, it may be your car. I'd be real patient about reaching a deal, that way you're more likely to get the lowest price and, because it's a manual, you shouldn't have to worry about someone else getting the car. Neither the Kelly Blue Book or the NADA guide accurately reflect the retail price of that car.
 
#14 ·
You guys are helping me out tremendously, I do appreciate it.

In case you're still interested in this saga, below is the email I sent to the sales rep after a phone conversation this evening. If there's anything I should change about my proposal, I'm all ears.

As nm+ said, VWofA may not honor the warranty, but in that case I'll request that the dealer honor it.

--Eric

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Jennifer,

As I mentioned, attached is the copy of the warranty someone posted on the internet. Hopefully you can get an authentic copy from VWofA -- I was unable to find anything about the issue on the VW website.

Here's a website explaining the issue in a little more detail, listing other cars that have the issue, and mentioning the VW warranty:
http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm

So, to summarize my proposal:

1) VWofA applies the oil sludge warranty to our purchase, meaning a dealership service shop of our choice would fix any problems related to the oil sludge issue free of charge up until 8 years after the original in-service date (with no mileage limitation), provided we stick to the recommended service intervals and use the appropriate oil from here on out.

2) We all agree on a price.

3) We agree to buy the car provided my pre-purchase appraisal at an independent shop of my choice (probably Hillside Imports in SW Portland) doesn't discover any issues.

Also, I didn't ask about this on the phone, but I would assume VWofA would honor the warranty for any subsequent transferees of the title. This is what the warranty says, but I'd want to make sure of that so we can sell it one day without running into this issue again.

Thanks so much for looking into that! I'll call Hillside Imports tomorrow to make a tentative appointment for Wednesday unless I hear from you that that won't be possible.

Talk to you soon.
 
#15 ·
At least it's a California car. The used car market is currently flooded (so to speak) with "Katrina cars," so be careful out there.
 
#16 ·
I agree with just about everything posted previously. I have a 99 V6 Tip and I absolutely love it. I would be VERY careful with any used car esp. a VW 1.8 I would have to see all of the maiint. records and I would have it looked at by an Indy shop as you are planning to do. Be patient and Good Luck...
 
#17 ·
if i were you id wait for that passat TDI. We own a 05 passat TDI and before it had 04 passat 1.8T GLS. Honestly hated the 1.8T (sorry to all the gasser guys) the TDI was so much quicker and could go 600miles on one tank! Id say wait or buy a new 05-06 jetta TDI they are the same size as a B5.
 
#18 ·
bioD2.0T said:
if i were you id wait for that passat TDI. We own a 05 passat TDI and before it had 04 passat 1.8T GLS. Honestly hated the 1.8T (sorry to all the gasser guys) the TDI was so much quicker and could go 600miles on one tank! Id say wait or buy a new 05-06 jetta TDI they are the same size as a B5.
Oh man, I wish we could afford a new car or an '05 Passat TDI. Plus, at least in this part of the country, it will be quite a while before the price comes down much on the B5s. We could actually probably sell our Jetta TDI wagon for more than we paid for it now :Yikes: The dealer probably asked us 20 times last night if we'd be willing to trade it in.

--Eric
 
#19 ·
1999 V6. 80k miles and not even a hiccup. Car's so solid that I can't bring myself to act on getting something shiny(er) and new. Did have the cam gasket sets done (twice) which seems pretty common for the 2.8L V6 engines; not an issue if you're still under the 100k oily-stuff warranty but probably less tolerable if you're the second owner or out of warranty.

I've heard stories of later (2002+) cars having window gaskets come unglued on a regular basis, etc. On a purely subjective note I didn't like the suspension feel of the 2003~4 1.8t loaner I had the opportunity of trying. Something changed drastically in the suspension tuning over the years, the B5.5 felt very slothenly and heavy compared to my B5. You do get better features in the newer ones tho, you mentioned ESP and side airbags which are probably worthwhile things to consider.
 
#20 ·
The 1.8T with the manual gets good mileage as well. Comparing my 1.8T 5speed wagon to my neighbours TDI Passat wagon the consumption is close.

At a highway cruise speed of about 135 km/h (about 84 mph) I get 8L/100km and in the city I am at 9L/100km. The TDI is getting (neighbours figures) about 7L/100km highway and 9L/100km city. I figure that the tip the TDI is saddled with is hurting its numbers a bit. Considering that Premium and diesel and priced almost the same the difference is small.

Long live the gasser!
 
#21 ·
Again, thanks so much for the help, all!

Looks like we won't be getting it because the sales rep won't budge below the classifieds price of $14,888, and my last offer was for $13,500. May still email her if I feel the same way in the morning and offer $14k, but otherwise I think there are other Passats in the sea that still have their maintenance records :D

If nothing else, I learned a lot about the sludge issue! :cool:

--Eric
 
#22 ·
Since you are back looking for a car, I would suggest speaking with Jeri Lynn at Ray Reece on 122nd. We have know her for a while, my family has gotten cars through her, and she is a straight shooter when it comes to sales. PM if you would like, and I can hunt down her cell #. Also have you tried Craiglsit? A buddy of mine picked up an 02 tip 1.8t for 11k a bit ago.

Also as an added bonus. If you find a car, let me know the VIN #, and I will have my wife (she works for V of A) to check out and see if they have had any big claims with V of A, or if they were in default on the payments (ie probably didn't do all the maintinence if they can't afford the payment) ;)

-d
 
#23 ·
erslah said:
Again, thanks so much for the help, all!

Looks like we won't be getting it because the sales rep won't budge below the classifieds price of $14,888, and my last offer was for $13,500. May still email her if I feel the same way in the morning and offer $14k, but otherwise I think there are other Passats in the sea that still have their maintenance records :D

If nothing else, I learned a lot about the sludge issue! :cool:

--Eric
If they aren't budging at all, and you have made several offers, take a break. Have they agreed at all to the other terms you put in your email re: sludge warranty etc? If so, kick back and cool your heels, give em a few days to stew and see if anyone else comes in wanting that car. Odds are slim that anyone will, and when you come back they'll realize they can either sit on the car and wait for their price (something dealers do NOT want to do) or meet you in the middle. Don't raise the middle too soon!
 
#24 ·
Harvey Wallbanger said:
Have they agreed at all to the other terms you put in your email re: sludge warranty etc?
She wanted to find out if it would be worth her while before she would talk about my other conditions. I'm inclined to say to hell with her, especially since I think that she'll be stuck with that 5-speed in a car that I imagine most people want with an AT, but I may take your advice and call back in a couple of days if I don't see something better on Craigslist, Autotrader, etc.

The biggest thing that burned me up was their demand -- before they would let us take it for the inspection -- that we promise to buy it if the inspection found no major issues. I don't know how common that is, but it seems mighty sleazy. Who defines "major issues?" :mad:

It helps that it wasn't a TDI, or I would have had a lot more trouble saying no ;)

--Eric