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Weird electrical problem

20K views 61 replies 6 participants last post by  kenblasko  
#1 · (Edited)
I need help with the following problem. When I started my car my turn lights, my a/c and my low beams didn't work.

At firts I thought it could be the relay but the emergency lights work fine. So I tried the high beams and they work fine. Then I tried the A/C and that didn't work either.

I had to drive 25 miles to get home with my high beams on.

The recirculating arrow in the A/C is flashing.

Windshiled wipers don't work either.

It's a '99 1.8.

Any ideas what the problem might be?
 
#5 ·
No the drefoster is not working and neither are the daytime lrunning lights, only the high beams. Would either one of these relays shut down the other items that are affected as well?

Is the relay under the dashboard, how hard is it to replace? Where do I find the ignition switch? How hard is it to replace? Is there a way to isolate either one of them to pin point the faulty one?

Thans for the help.
 
#6 ·
diagnosing a failed load reduction relay
http://forums.audiworld.com/a4/msgs/2494491.phtml

even though your symtoms dont match 100% to the ones i experienced, i do have factory xenon headlights, so their wiring may be different.

pull the relay and visually inspect to see if its melted. or just replace it. or if you know what you are doing, test the relay electrically.

if the relay isnt the problem, its your ignition switch.
 
#9 ·
The load reduction relay is relay 213 under the driver's side dash. When you turn the key to start (engine cranking), the load reduction relay is not energized. Once the car starts and the key is released to the on position, the load reduction relay picks up and supplies positive to the devices you list as not working. So either the relay is bad or the ignition switch contact is probably bad. There are a couple things you can try. Pull the lower panel off the driver's side and see if you can tell whether the relay picked up when the car is started. Also, you can test the relay by pulling it and jumpering 12 volts across the coil and with an ohmeter see if the contact closes. If the relay operates correctly when you test it and it doesn't pick up when its plugged into its socket then the ignitin switch is probably bad. If this is the case, pull the relay then start the car, and with a voltmeter see if you have battery voltage on the relay socket that corresponds to the relay pin 8, labeled 75. If you don't have battery voltage on the socket connector, then it's probably the contact in your ignition switch that is bad.
 
#12 ·
Well you cetainly can just replace the relay (it's not that expensive) and see if that fixes the problem. But if if doesn't then your out the cost of the relay. Do you know anyone else with a VAG car. That relay is common to most so you could just swap the relay and see if that fixes the problem before you buy one.
 
#16 ·
Whoa!

I just logged on to the forums to post a message about a weird electrical problem that I encountered today...and what is the very first thread in the forums? "Weird electrical problem". Now that's weird.

Anyway - My 99 B5 Passat seems to be having the exact same problem. No DRL/lowbeams. No turn signals. No blower, no rear defrost. All fuses good. The "brake" light is on in the dash...but it is dim. If I pull up on the e-brake, the "brake" light becomes bright. Huh.

Highbeams good, 4-way flashers good. Interestingly enough - one of the front turn signal bulbs was burnt out. I replaced it with a good bulb, and parking lights work, 4-ways work...but nothing else works as described above.

I just pulled off the dash, and there is no "213" relay as referenced in the AudiWorld forums. Instead, I have the "370" relay with VAG part number 8D0 951 253. This is apparently the "new" relay per the AudiWorld forums.

Pulling out my multi-meter right now... I'll test the socket as per kenblasko's advice...
 
#21 ·
Well you really should do some troubleshooting. I noticed in another thread you indicated you smelled something burning a while back. It could be a burnt wire so replacing parts is not always the answer. IIRC replacing the ignition switch requires removal of the steering wheel, air bag, and turn signal and wiper switches to get to the ignition switch. Probably a job for someone with experience. You need to see if you are getting positive to the load reduction relay from the ignition switch.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Well, I made a cool little drawing but I now realize we can't upload attachments. Bummer. Anyway...

The pins on the "370" relay are labled 30, 85, 86, and 87. When the relay is inserted into the socket:

Pin 87 goes into socket 6
86 into 5
85 into 8
30 into 7

Now with that we can see the flow of electricity. When power is applied to the coil in the relay, the switch closes and 30 provides power to 87. This, by the way, is the basic design of all relays...

My multi-meter shows 14v at socket 7 (corresponds to pin 30) with the key on or off, which tells me that I am indeed getting power to the socket. Also, I get 14v across sockets 5 and 8 with the engine running, so the ignition switch must be working. Power across sockets 5 and 8 is what tells the relay to close and provide power from 30 to 87.

So I have good power at the socket. I'm willing to bet, then, that my relay is bad.

Anyone know of a NAPA, etc. equivalent to the "370" relay? Or do I have to make the trek to my stealership...?
 
#23 ·
Well, I made a cool little drawing but I now realize we can't upload attachments. Bummer. Anyway...

The pins on the "370" relay are labled 30, 85, 86, and 87. When the relay is inserted into the socket:

Pin 87 goes into socket 6
86 into 5
85 into 8
30 into 7

Now with that we can see the flow of electricity. When power is applied to the coil in the relay, the switch closes and 30 provides power to 87. This, by the way, is the basic design of all relays...

My multi-meter shows 14v at socket 7 (corresponds to pin 30) with the key on or off, which tells me that I am indeed getting power to the socket, so the ignition switch must be working. Also, I get 14v across 85 and 86 with the engine running. This is what tells the relay to close and provide power from 30 to 87.

So I have good power at the socket. I'm willing to bet, then, that my relay is bad.

Anyone know of a NAPA, etc. equivalent to the "370" relay? Or do I have to make the trek to my stealership...?
It's probably the relay. Pin 7 does not go to the ignition switch. It is unfused positive from the battery. The ignition switch positive picks up the relay coil 85, 86 so your ignition switch is okay (see the schematic). If you want to you could check your relay. Check the resistance of the coil of your relay and the continuity of the contacts? If the coil has a few ohms resistance, then you could jumper battery voltage across the coil and see if the contact closes.

Don't know if you can get it at NAPA, AUTOZONE, etc. But at worldimpex.com it's $10 generic and $14 OEM based on your part number.
 
#24 ·
Thanks for your input, kenblasko. It is appreciated.

Here is the little schematic I drew. I thought maybe it would help Ray. Hopefully it is a little easier to follow than a "real" schematic like the one posted above.

Image

Ray, socket 7 (pin 30) is hot all the time, so ~14v would show up on a multimeter here, no matter the key position. When the engine is started, the ignition switch provides ~14v across socket 5 & 8 (pin 86 & 85), which will close the electromagnetic switch inside the relay (the dotted line "pulls" the switch closed). So now imagine the switch in my picture closed, so that socket 7 (pin 30) and socket 6 (pin 87) are now connected. Now ~14v from socket 7 (pin 30) can flow to socket 6 (pin 87), which goes on to power the stuff that's needed for the wipers, headlights, blower, etc. Does that make sense?

Here is how to test if the ignition switch is working: Get a multimeter, select "DC VOLTS" on the dial, and stick one probe in socket 8 and the other probe in socket 5. Start the engine, and you should see ~14 volts here if the ignition switch is working.

I hope this helps. If anything needs clarification, please ask! :thumbup:
 
#26 ·
One other test you guys can do once you establish that positive is on terminal 7 is to pull the relay, then start your car and then with a piece of wire, jumper from socket 7 to 6. All your equipment that was not working should now work. Try your wipers and see if they now work. If they do, then the wiring from the relay to the fuses is probably okay. Also, if you have positive from the ignition switch then, its virtually has to be the relay.
 
#27 ·
Kenblasko - I already jumped socket 6 to 7, and yup - everything worked. So yes, wiring from battery to relay socket, and from relay socket to fuses, etc all work ok.

However - I just tested my relay by applying voltage across 85 and 86. "CLICK!". Oh damn it. I was kinda hoping it wouldn't click. Indeed, the resistance across 30 and 87 was essentially 0 ohms with voltage across 85 and 86, and an open circuit without voltage. So it appears the relay is working fine. Just not when it is in the car! Ugh.

Just to be double sure - I'm going to once again go check for voltage across socket 5 and 8 with the engine running. Last time, though, I had a solid 14v. Hmmm....
 
#29 ·
Yes - put the relay back in and nothing. I even tapped on the housing of the relay thinking perhaps it was hung up... No go.

I just went out in the garage and I am getting ~8v across sockets 5 and 8. Now last time I was fairly sure I had 14v. Weird. I'm not sure if my 8v was due to poor probe placement, or... Nevertheless, never saw higher than ~8v. Socket 7 continues to show 14v. Jumping 7 and 32 continues to allow things to work.

Putting a 9v battery across pins 85 and 86 still results in a solid "CLICK". The battery measures in at 9.15v on the multimeter.

How many volts does it take to close the relay? If the ignition switch is truely only sending ~8v to the relay, is that enough to close the switch?
 
#30 ·
Couple of things, check your resistance from socket 5 to a know good ground (battery negative if you have a long enough cable). Should be 0 ohms. Check your voltage on socket 8 to a know good ground. Then pull relay 204 (horn relay) and see if voltage reading changes. If you look at the wiring schematic you'll see positive from the ignition switch also goes to the horn relay. If you have a high resistance contact in your ignition switch or a high resistance connection to the ignition switch, when you measure volage with the horn relay in you will read lower voltage. If you pull the relay then even if you have a high resistance contact you will read battery voltage because there is no other path to ground from the ignition switch contact. So when you put relay 370 back in, the voltage could fall below the 8V you measured because of a high resistance ignition switch contact and below the operating voltage of the relay.
 
#32 ·
Yeah - I've seen that picture before modifiedA4...

Sadly, I believe my relay is just fine. It makes a good "click" with a 9v battery across the terminals. Also, I don't seem to be getting consistent voltage from the ignition switch to the #8 socket, which is used to "activate" the relay. I'm still troubleshooting.

kenblasko (and any others following), my resistance from socket 5 to ground is zero. Repeat tests of voltage on socket 8 (with ground on the battery) shows inconsistent readings. Nothing higher than 8v. Shit.

I'm about to go back out and check out the voltage heading to the horn relay. As kenblasko pointed out, this relay also gets voltage from the ignition switch.

I've been studying the wiring diagrams, and now my eyes hurt. :(

I appreciate everyone's help. I'm sure Ray does, too. ;)
 
#33 ·
Well, after studying the wiring diagrams, and more trouble shooting, I'm rather certain that my ignition/starter switch is bad.

It is suprisingly easy to get to. Remove the upper and lower plastic parts of the steering column, and you'll see the switch on the left, just below the turn signal stalk. With the steering column adjustment lever in the down position, you can lower the column and pull it towards you for the most room to work with. The electrical connection for the ignition switch just pulls right out, and two small set screws hold the actual ignition/starter switch in place (a little dab of red paint covered my set screws). The part number is 4B0 905 849. You do not have to disassemble the air bag, take the steering wheel off, etc. The ignition/starter switch can be out in 5 minutes. Very easy to do.

The wiring diagram indicates that the load reduction relay is fed by a yellow wire with black stripe from the ignition switch. Well, with my ignition on (car running), there are ZERO volts at the yellow/black stripe connection. This correlates with the relay socket...for a little bit it did show up to 8 volts - but it now shows zero. Makes sense, since the yellow/black wire is the one that feeds the relay!

Let's hope the dealership has the part in stock in the morning. This is the wife's B5 and she misses driving it already. :p
 
#35 · (Edited)
Problem Fixed!

Well, I fixed the problem today guys. It was indeed the ignition switch.

Image


Today being a Saturday, however - NOBODY had the part in stock, and the dealership parts department is closed. Ugh. So, I was forced to take matters into my own hands.

Figuring I had nothing to lose, I popped open the ignition switch itself. With a little bit of help from a small screwdriver, the black part can be popped off the white part. There are three little "tabs".

Image


There are several contacts in there, as well as a couple of springs that work in a way that is difficult to explain. Basically, the springs hold two contacts that slide in plastic grooves when the cylinder is turned. The plastic groove guides the contacts so they touch the appropriate terminals when the cylinder is turned. If those tiny, spring loaded contacts are not in the correct position in those grooves, the switch will not work properly.

It took a couple of tries, but once I got those contacts sliding properly in the plastic grooves, the terminals were working like they should. This is verified by checking resistance from terminal 30 to 75. There should be an open circuit with the cylinder in the "off" position, and zero resistance with it "on". Before I took the switch apart, I had an open circuit from 30 to 75 in both the on and off position. Ah ha! :biglaugh:

Terminal 30 feeds terminal 75, which is the one with the yellow/black wires. These, in turn, feed the horn relay, as well as the load reduction relay. The load reduction relay goes on to provide power to circuits for headlights, wipers, turn signals, blower, rear defrost, etc. No power at terminal 75 = no horn, no lights, no turn signals, etc!

Here is the back portion of the ignition switch; it interfaces with the shaft from the key cylinder.
Image

Look closely - you can see a little pin inside the yellow hole. It is spring loaded, and pushing it in results in moving a contact and a couple terminals get powered up (this is the switch that gets turned on for "key in ignition").

Turning the yellow portion is the same as turning the key on and off. It is easily turned with a screwdriver on the bench, so you can test terminals 30 and 75 as described above.

Several of the terminals had a bit of build-up on them, which sanded off quite easily. Also, I can imagine how these ignition switches could fail over time. The metal contacts that slide in the plastic grooves could wear down the pastic over time, allowing the contacts to jump out of the groove. I'm not sure if this is what happened to mine or not...the plastic is worn a little, but the contacts are now back in place, and the car is working great! Back to normal!

Ray - let me know if you have any questions at all. I have the PDF's of the wiring diagrams and have studied them a lot over the last 24 hours. Also, taking the ignition switch out is very easy, and I'd be happy to help you out with that. It is about a $40 part from a parts store; maybe more at the dealership; maybe less from an online parts web site. I'd imagine you could have the old one out and a new one in place in 30 minutes. There's no doubt in my mind the dealership would charge a "diagnostic fee", then an inflated price on the part, then at least an hour of labor.

To everyone else (and especially kenblasko), thank you very much! In less than a day we developed a very strange electrical problem, diagnosed it, took parts apart, fixed them, and put it all back together. Soooo much more fulfilling doing it yourself, instead of the dealer! Plus it was FREE!!

I couldn't have done it without everyone's help! Thanks!! :thumbup:
 
#39 ·
Well, I fixed the problem today guys. It was indeed the ignition switch.

Image


Today being a Saturday, however - NOBODY had the part in stock, and the dealership parts department is closed. Ugh. So, I was forced to take matters into my own hands.

Figuring I had nothing to lose, I popped open the ignition switch itself. With a little bit of help from a small screwdriver, the black part can be popped off the white part. There are three little "tabs".

Image


There are several contacts in there, as well as a couple of springs that work in a way that is difficult to explain. Basically, the springs hold two contacts that slide in plastic grooves when the cylinder is turned. The plastic groove guides the contacts so they touch the appropriate terminals when the cylinder is turned. If those tiny, spring loaded contacts are not in the correct position in those grooves, the switch will not work properly.

It took a couple of tries, but once I got those contacts sliding properly in the plastic grooves, the terminals were working like they should. This is verified by checking resistance from terminal 30 to 75. There should be an open circuit with the cylinder in the "off" position, and zero resistance with it "on". Before I took the switch apart, I had an open circuit from 30 to 75 in both the on and off position. Ah ha! :biglaugh:

Terminal 30 feeds terminal 75, which is the one with the yellow/black wires. These, in turn, feed the horn relay, as well as the load reduction relay. The load reduction relay goes on to provide power to circuits for headlights, wipers, turn signals, blower, rear defrost, etc. No power at terminal 75 = no horn, no lights, no turn signals, etc!

Here is the back portion of the ignition switch; it interfaces with the shaft from the key cylinder.
Image

Look closely - you can see a little pin inside the yellow hole. It is spring loaded, and pushing it in results in moving a contact and a couple terminals get powered up (this is the switch that gets turned on for "key in ignition").

Turning the yellow portion is the same as turning the key on and off. It is easily turned with a screwdriver on the bench, so you can test terminals 30 and 75 as described above.

Several of the terminals had a bit of build-up on them, which sanded off quite easily. Also, I can imagine how these ignition switches could fail over time. The metal contacts that slide in the plastic grooves could wear down the pastic over time, allowing the contacts to jump out of the groove. I'm not sure if this is what happened to mine or not...the plastic is worn a little, but the contacts are now back in place, and the car is working great! Back to normal!

Ray - let me know if you have any questions at all. I have the PDF's of the wiring diagrams and have studied them a lot over the last 24 hours. Also, taking the ignition switch out is very easy, and I'd be happy to help you out with that. It is about a $40 part from a parts store; maybe more at the dealership; maybe less from an online parts web site. I'd imagine you could have the old one out and a new one in place in 30 minutes. There's no doubt in my mind the dealership would charge a "diagnostic fee", then an inflated price on the part, then at least an hour of labor.

To everyone else (and especially kenblasko), thank you very much! In less than a day we developed a very strange electrical problem, diagnosed it, took parts apart, fixed them, and put it all back together. Soooo much more fulfilling doing it yourself, instead of the dealer! Plus it was FREE!!

I couldn't have done it without everyone's help! Thanks!! :thumbup:

I'm afraid my ignition switch is acting up as well because yesterday that I bought the part and Installed it it was still having the same problem. You mention it is really easy to get to and I'll give it a try, anything I should keep an eye on so I won't screw anything up.

You didn't take pictures of it did you?