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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Today I started the timing belt job on our 02 V6 Passat that we picked up last spring. I know it's had it changed previously but I'm not sure
when, so doing it to be on the safe side. Here's my problem, I'm at the point where you set the crank at TDC and attach the cam locking bar. Well, one side seems to be correct (right) but the other is not lined up (left). I am able to get it so the bar fits on both sides but then my mark at the crank advances.

Since we got the car it has been driven plenty and we have never had a CEL for incorrect timing. Would this have caused drivability issues? I'm guessing it's a few teeth off.

How would I go about fixing this? Is there a step in the DIY where I could line things up correctly again. Whoever did the job last did mark things with a paint marker, I'm inclined to redo them using a different color of course.

The question is, since there were no problems, do I leave it as is to avoid making things worse or...? This is my first big job on this motor.

Thanks.

crank.jpg left.jpg right.jpg
 

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My advice would be to lock the cams, and loosen the cam gear bolts, as you usually would. Then rotate the crank back to TDC.
Don't bother with paint marks. They're the 'I don't feel like timing it correctly' method of doing the job.

Doing it by the book, you're less likely to fark it up, than if you try to repeat someone else's admittedly goofed-up job.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
My advice would be to lock the cams, and loosen the cam gear bolts, as you usually would. Then rotate the crank back to TDC.
Don't bother with paint marks. They're the 'I don't feel like timing it correctly' method of doing the job.

Doing it by the book, you're less likely to fark it up, than if you try to repeat someone else's admittedly goofed-up job.
Thanks a lot. So just back it up counter-clockwise? Then do the additional 30 degrees from TDC? That part I'm a little unclear on.
 

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As you don't understand the procedure, it might be best to leave well enough alone.

If you want to just reset the belt timing:
Fit the cam lock bar, and loosen the cam pulley bolts 2 turns.
Use a puller to pull the pulleys, then screw the bolts in as far as you can without causing binding on the shafts.
Turn the crank to TDC and fit the crank lock pin.
Tighten the cam pulley bolts to 41ft-lbs (55Nm). (With cam bar still installed)
Remove the cam locking bar and crank lock pin.
Re-fit the covers etc and the job is done.

The 30 degrees part is not required or desired in this operation.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
As you don't understand the procedure, it might be best to leave well enough alone.

If you want to just reset the belt timing:
Fit the cam lock bar, and loosen the cam pulley bolts 2 turns.
Use a puller to pull the pulleys, then screw the bolts in as far as you can without causing binding on the shafts.
Turn the crank to TDC and fit the crank lock pin.
Tighten the cam pulley bolts to 41ft-lbs (55Nm). (With cam bar still installed)
Remove the cam locking bar and crank lock pin.
Re-fit the covers etc and the job is done.

The 30 degrees part is not required or desired in this operation.
Working on understanding it-watching videos, reading write-ups. I've done a 2.0L timing belt on a couple of VW's.

I'm doing the full timing belt service.

So i just want to look at the crank and cams as separate after the cams have been locked and the pulleys popped off correct? Bring the crank to TDC and that's that?

Thanks.
 

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V6 TIMING BELT REPLACING

When you do the timing belt, I suggest you replace the following:
A) Timing Belt
B) TB Tensioner Damper
C) TB Tensioner Roller
D) TB Idler Roller
E) Water Pump & Gasket
F) Thermostat & "O" Ring & maybe the Housing

Also consider replacing:
G) Serpentine (Accessory) belt
H) Serpentine belt Tensioner
I) Check all coolant hoses, replace if required
J) Coolant
__________________________________________________________________

V6 TIMING BELT

Instructions for V6 Timing Belt replacement.
I suggest you carefully, and precisely in the order listed:
Disconnect negative battery cable.
1) Turn the crank to TDC. (Cylinder #3 TDC)
2) Compress the TB tensioner using an Allen wrench (clockwise) in the tensioner roller, and fit the pin in the tensioner.
3) Remove the Timing Belt.
4) Turn the crank counter-clockwise to about 45-60 degrees before TDC. (valves can't hit pistons in this position)
5) Remove the cam pulleys, and refit leaving them just loose enough to turn freely.
6) Then use the cam lock bar to turn the exhaust cams so the large holes in the pulley plates are facing inwards (toward each other), and fit the cam locking bar.
6a) Re-check cam chain timing, correct if required. (Not necessary if chains haven't been touched)
7) Turn crank clockwise to the timing mark on crank pulley, and fit the crank lock pin.
8) Fit the water pump, thermostat, TB tensioner, idler roller, and tensioner roller.
9) Fit the TB on the crank pulley first, then working in a counter-clockwise direction, fit it around all the other pulleys.
Make sure the belt is tight everywhere except the section that goes over the tensioner roller.
10) Release the load on the pin in the tensioner with an Allen wrench in the pulley (clockwise), remove the pin.
11) Allow a couple of minutes for the tensioner to extend, then pretension the TB, using a torque wrench in the tensioner roller turn counter-clockwise to a torque of 132in-lbs (15Nm).
12) Tighten the cam pulley bolts to 41ft-lbs (55Nm). (With cam bar still installed)
13) Remove the cam locking bar and crank lock pin.
14) Carefully turn crank 2 full turns clockwise back to TDC and recheck timing.
15) Put the rest of the car back together and go for a drive.

If you have any concerns about this, please ask before proceeding.
__________________________________________________________________________________


CAM CHAIN TIMING 2.8 V6
If any cam has been, or is going to be removed.
Disconnect negative battery cable.
A) After setting the crank to about 45 degrees before TDC. (See above) Install the cams with the chain fitted correctly. (16 roller count, see appropriate diagram)
All camshaft bearing caps MUST go back in their original positions and orientation.
You can fit the cam pulley holding plates to the exhaust cams, and use the cam locking bar to turn the cams.
B) After all 4 cams are correctly aligned to the timing marks as in photo, and the chains are correct. Fit the cam locking bar.
C) Turn the crank clockwise to TDC and fit the crank lock pin.
D) Fit the timing belt etc.

Check the 16 roller count as shown in this Ross Tech Wiki Pic: (Note offsets)
The Ross Tech diagram for the V6 Bank 1 is not correct. The V6 Bank 1 is the same as the 1.8T.
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/images/thumb/1/16/Cam_timing_chains.gif/200px-Cam_timing_chains.gif

This pic clearly shows Bank 2 correctly aligned.
View attachment 22825
 

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Follow Tom's instructions to the letter and all will be good. Most importantly, If you are not certain ASK before moving forward.

As for the crank timing marks. On the V6 they are known not to line up exactly. Remove the cover on the block where the Crank lock is installed and using an inspection mirror and a small flashlight look for the dimple in the crank where the crank locking pin seats.(easier said than done.) Center the dimple and install the crank locking pin. Check to be certain the crank is locked in place.
I have done mine twice 2002 V6 ATQ and my crank marks are slightly off with the locking pin in place.

This is not to say your timing is not off, just my experience.

Again listen to Tom.
 

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4) Turn the crank counter-clockwise to about 45-60 degrees before TDC. (valves can't hit pistons in this position)


Certainly nothing wrong with this advice, but this step might be more appropriate for installing cylinder heads, in which case the valve's are likely completely untimed relative to the crank. In the case of an engine such as this one, I'd install the crank holding pin (be sure the large holes in the cam plates face each other), since one more revolution of the crank would have those holes opposed to each other. After that, loosen the tensioner, which will allow enough slack in the belt to move the sprockets, enough for the cam plates to fit the cam holding bar. Now the cam bolts will be loosened and the sprockets pulled free off the tapered camshaft ends. Keep in mind that there are no keys driving the V6's cams, purely friction from the tapered fit! Fit the new belt, and re-tension as Tom explains.
 

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I took great care writing that so it would be safe for most people.
Some people accidently turn the cams a bit while loosening the pulley bolts.
With the crank at TDC, it only takes a few degrees to damage valves.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Follow Tom's instructions to the letter and all will be good. Most importantly, If you are not certain ASK before moving forward.

As for the crank timing marks. On the V6 they are known not to line up exactly. Remove the cover on the block where the Crank lock is installed and using an inspection mirror and a small flashlight look for the dimple in the crank where the crank locking pin seats.(easier said than done.) Center the dimple and install the crank locking pin. Check to be certain the crank is locked in place.
I have done mine twice 2002 V6 ATQ and my crank marks are slightly off with the locking pin in place.

This is not to say your timing is not off, just my experience.

Again listen to Tom.
Certainly nothing wrong with this advice, but this step might be more appropriate for installing cylinder heads, in which case the valve's are likely completely untimed relative to the crank. In the case of an engine such as this one, I'd install the crank holding pin (be sure the large holes in the cam plates face each other), since one more revolution of the crank would have those holes opposed to each other. After that, loosen the tensioner, which will allow enough slack in the belt to move the sprockets, enough for the cam plates to fit the cam holding bar. Now the cam bolts will be loosened and the sprockets pulled free off the tapered camshaft ends. Keep in mind that there are no keys driving the V6's cams, purely friction from the tapered fit! Fit the new belt, and re-tension as Tom explains.
I took great care writing that so it would be safe for most people.
Some people accidently turn the cams a bit while loosening the pulley bolts.
With the crank at TDC, it only takes a few degrees to damage valves.

Thanks gentlemen, I don't know what I was thinking, it all made sense as I broke things down and tackled the job. I ended up lining the cams up and locking with the camshaft bar, then cutting the belt, and then walking the crank back the tiny bit it needed to be on, locking it with the crank tool inserted. I'm about halfway through at the moment but feeling pretty good about it. About to remove the thermostat and then pop off the pulleys with the 3 jaw puller. It hasn't been without a few stumbles. I found one of the viscous fan bracket recessed allen heads rounded out so I had to completely remove the lock carrier, a large pipe wrench was good for removing the upper radiator hose (no idea how I'm going to get it back on though as I've heard that's just as tough.) Lower hose I removed from the cylinder head. Fortunately, I did not need to drill the bolt, was able to hammer in a torque socket 1 size up or so and it grabbed, now I need a new bolt though. Also, P.O. had green coolant in there not G12 so I guess I'm going to have to look up that flushing procedure for the heater core before I fill her back up. On the bright side, this timing belt job may correct the coolant leak I've been looking for, it was seeping coolant from the bottom of the water pump.

Fingers crossed everything goes back together ok, but at least the anxiety over the timing has eased. I have to say, the lock carrier down makes it much easier to work on.

Here's a big question I have at the moment. I'm looking at that alternator with suspicion. The last 2 used vws I purchased needed an alternator a few months down the line. This one looks to be original on the Passat. She has about 150k miles. Being that I have everything apart, should I change the alternator preemptively, or is there a chance it'll keep working just fine? I ask because my son's mother will be using the car to drive our son to school. I have to work outside so doing this in the winter would not be an option, plus I would hate to have to go through this lock carrier removal process again so soon. Thoughts?
 

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Here's a big question I have at the moment. I'm looking at that alternator with suspicion. The last 2 used vws I purchased needed an alternator a few months down the line. This one looks to be original on the Passat. She has about 150k miles. Being that I have everything apart, should I change the alternator preemptively, or is there a chance it'll keep working just fine? I ask because my son's mother will be using the car to drive our son to school. I have to work outside so doing this in the winter would not be an option, plus I would hate to have to go through this lock carrier removal process again so soon. Thoughts?
Absolutely not! It's way too much fun fishing alternator out later.

Just kidding, It would not be a bad idea to replace the voltage regulator while you have easier access. The regulator contains the brushes which are the wear item in the alternator. No need to spend the money to replace the complete alternator. Not to mention that most of the rebuilt ones are bad from the start.
here's a link to the regulator. https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bosch-parts/voltage-regulator/038903803ex~bos/ And it's up to you to confirm fitment, but this should be the correct one for your 2002 ATQ.
 

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It would not be a bad idea to replace the voltage regulator while you have easier access. The regulator contains the brushes which are the wear item in the alternator. No need to spend the money to replace the complete alternator. Not to mention that most of the rebuilt ones are bad from the start.
Absolutely agree with this. While in the job this far, take a good look at the coolant hoses, and if any reason to suspect bad motor mounts or snub mount, this is a good time to get them done too.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Absolutely not! It's way too much fun fishing alternator out later.

Just kidding, It would not be a bad idea to replace the voltage regulator while you have easier access. The regulator contains the brushes which are the wear item in the alternator. No need to spend the money to replace the complete alternator. Not to mention that most of the rebuilt ones are bad from the start.
here's a link to the regulator. https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bosch-parts/voltage-regulator/038903803ex~bos/ And it's up to you to confirm fitment, but this should be the correct one for your 2002 ATQ.

Thanks for this tip.
The good news is the timing belt is all done and turning the motor over by hand 2 rotations brought me back to TDC with no binding up.
The bad news re: the alternator is I have a Valeo 078 903 016 H in there right now, not a Bosch. Does that mean it is not serviceable? Can the same voltage regulator/brushed combo be purchased for a Valeo. I guess on the positive side, if my model is definitely supposed to have the Bosch from the factory that would mean it was already changed correct? Would I be able to check that with the vin #?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Absolutely agree with this. While in the job this far, take a good look at the coolant hoses, and if any reason to suspect bad motor mounts or snub mount, this is a good time to get them done too.
Coolant hoses look ok I think. I am worried about reconnecting the upper radiator clip hose though. Hopefully will be able to and wont break it.
Doing the snub mount because it was basically crumbling yellow foam. The one I got is rubber.

I was reading up on the motor mounts and man, that's not something I was comfortable doing at the moment, seems like a big job. I will try to do a visual and see what kind of shape they are in. Any signs that would indicate they needed to be changed ASAP?
 

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The motor mounts are technically easier than the timing belt, but the passenger side upper bolt is a pita. Your best bet is to buy a stubby 13mm ratcheting combi wrench to remove that nut.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The motor mounts are technically easier than the timing belt, but the passenger side upper bolt is a pita. Your best bet is to buy a stubby 13mm ratcheting combi wrench to remove that nut.

Is that the one you have to work on blindly?
 

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The bad news re: the alternator is I have a Valeo 078 903 016 H in there right now, not a Bosch. Does that mean it is not serviceable? Can the same voltage regulator/brushed combo be purchased for a Valeo. I guess on the positive side, if my model is definitely supposed to have the Bosch from the factory that would mean it was already changed correct? Would I be able to check that with the vin #?
VW used both Bosch and Valeo alternators as OE. The Bosch regulator will Not fit the Valeo alternator. However you can find regulators for the Valeo alternators. Read through this DIY for the clue in the last paragraph of the DIY. DIY: $5 Alternator Fix - replacing brushes (Valeo)
Now do a google search and you can find a regulator.

The motor mounts are just a some bolts, not a bad job to do, just takes a little time. MUCH easier than the timing belt service. There are a couple TTY (Torque To Yield) bolts involved that will need to be replaced while doing the job. I found it easier to reach the passenger side top nut by reaching over the sub-frame from the back.
Totally separate job from what you are doing now., But you may want to replace the front Snub mount now. takes 2 minutes while you have everything apart.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
VW used both Bosch and Valeo alternators as OE. The Bosch regulator will Not fit the Valeo alternator. However you can find regulators for the Valeo alternators. Read through this DIY for the clue in the last paragraph of the DIY. DIY: $5 Alternator Fix - replacing brushes (Valeo)
Now do a google search and you can find a regulator.

The motor mounts are just a some bolts, not a bad job to do, just takes a little time. MUCH easier than the timing belt service. There are a couple TTY (Torque To Yield) bolts involved that will need to be replaced while doing the job. I found it easier to reach the passenger side top nut by reaching over the sub-frame from the back.
Totally separate job from what you are doing now., But you may want to replace the front Snub mount now. takes 2 minutes while you have everything apart.

Thanks for all the advice, I appreciate it. So I pulled the alternator and opened it up. The brushes are a little short right?
IMG_20170928_063416718 (1).jpg

As far as the pulley goes, I should be able to push it one way with no resistance and the opposite way with a bit of resistance correct? I had no charging issues.


I tried calling Napa to see if there was a cross referenced part they might carry locally but didn't seem they did.
I wish I could get one sooner but I guess I'll have to go through online.
This seems to be the only site where I found it:
# M521 - Voltage Regulator / Brush Holder Assembly. Valeo Voltage Regulator
 

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Thanks for all the advice, I appreciate it. So I pulled the alternator and opened it up. The brushes are a little short right?
Yeah, looks like you made the right choice to take it apart. You might have seen how I recently installed new brushes in my 1.8T's alternator. It cost all of $3.80 for the pair (plus shipping). It takes a bit of bench work but not that difficult, especially if you have a Dremel tool and solder station.
 
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