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at least we can see some new pictures then.
 

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But dealers didn't get everything they wanted. VW refused to accelerate the U.S. introductions of the redesigned Jetta and Passat, scheduled for 2005. VW plans to launch the Passat in Germany this year.
 

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I can understand that they want to make sure quality is up to par, before launch, as they said in the article.

But when the cars are being released in europe, in the case of the new Jetta out now, and the passat this fall. Do they have lower quliaty standards for Europe? I doubt it....

It would seem to me that its poor planning. Car companies, know how long the life cycle is for a car. VW knew its product line was aging. Proper planning would have allowed them to have the new passat, and jetta ready before they get into a situation where they are now. I've said it before, the Passat is an great car. When it came out in 98' though, it was much better, not because it specifically was a better car, but becuase it was way ahead of the competition. Now 7 years later, the competition is much closer. All the competition is offering updated versions of their cars, with more HP, ect...

I believe that VW can stay ahead of this competition curve, but they got lazy and chose not too....


I also thought this was intresting:

"By sacrificing some sales, VW maintained some of the industry's highest residual values. Among high-volume brands, VW's residual values are second only to Honda and Toyota. "
-Nick
 

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Agreed. It seems that too many resources were spent on low volume models like the Phaeton and core models were left for dead. If they had focused on getting out the new Passat and Golf/Jetta models, perhaps those 5,000 people going jobless now wouldn't have that worry.
 

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TAckhouse1 said:
Do they have lower quliaty standards for Europe? I doubt it....
-Nick
Don't be so sure.

Germans (and presumably the other Euros who see far greater numbers of German cars than Americans do) have always accepted glitches becuase they don't know any better. They are seemingly unaware that there are cars built in the world which don't require unscheduled repairs for 100k or so.

Its a whole different philosophy. Germans design things which are ridiculously complicated, and aren't too put out when they don't operate properly. They accept this because hey, look how complicated this thing is....!

Then you have people like me, who only respect something when it does what it was designed to do for years and years WITH NO FAILURE OR REPAIRS.

There is a thread in the main room about a guy hitting 100k on is B5. His list of broke parts is half a page long, but somehow, he says his car is pretty reliable. They are not cheap parts that broke, either.

I have had MAYBE a 1/4 as many things go wrong with my Camry, which at this moment is at 199,4xx miles.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Then why can the japanese build and introduce cars everywhere at the same time? There is nothing complicated about these cars that has not been out for years. I have not seen recalls about the ESP. Cheap coil packs/and plastic window regualtors yes. A well designed part should work from one design to another, heck an A/C compressor is an A/C compressor, they don't have to redesign it every time.

Better planning = better quality.
 

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Sharky said:
TAckhouse1 said:
Germans (and presumably the other Euros who see far greater numbers of German cars than Americans do) have always accepted glitches becuase they don't know any better. They are seemingly unaware that there are cars built in the world which don't require unscheduled repairs for 100k or so.

Its a whole different philosophy. Germans design things which are ridiculously complicated, and aren't too put out when they don't operate properly. They accept this because hey, look how complicated this thing is....!
This must be a somewhat new thing. Audis & MB used to be the epiomy of quality & reliability. Even as recently as the late 80s. Take the type 85 Audis for example (4000, Coupe GT & UrQ). Not very complicated, very reliable, and still very good cars...
 

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This has all be talked about before. If VW was more prepared to compete in the larger markets for their middle class passenger car line, they would be well better off. Them trying to jump ship and sell a $75k car to a very, very small class of people isnt going to push them ahead of the competition as much as the Passat/Jetta classes, IMO.

Steve
 

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Sharky said:
Germans (and presumably the other Euros who see far greater numbers of German cars than Americans do) have always accepted glitches becuase they don't know any better. They are seemingly unaware that there are cars built in the world which don't require unscheduled repairs for 100k or so.
Sharky,

I just had to laugh for 10minutes.....
Now able to use the keyboard again:

Germany is one of the TOUGHEST when not THE toughest car-market in
the world. We've got the worlds most innovative car-makers competing
on their home-market by all means. The US is an important, but not the
#1 market for our companies. If we are thinking bout people who
accept "bugs" and low quality, we are thinking about whatever market,
but not our own.

German cars are designed to go about 200 km/h or more on the
Autobahn for hours ..... and we germans use this freedom.
We are not stupid, we won't do this with bad quality of material.
Don't know exactly about the Quality-checking prodecures, but i'm pretty
shure, that the highest-quality cars ( .. if it is posible to pick them out )
stay in Germany.

e.g. Why should Porsche ship the best cars to the US, where the poor car
is only allowed to go 60 mp/h :crazy: , while the german customer WILL
USE his Porsche every day till the absolute Limit ??

The Reliability of our cars has fallen. Yes. But why ? INNOVATION !.
Did the japs ( or the US ) innovate anything important in the last few
years ? NO !. If you using stone-old technologies you're more reliable
but Boooooooring !

I'll never give up any german car for a "simple japanese Machine, that
moves" or a US-car that is state of the art of the late 80ies.

greetz,

Der
KolbenFresser
 

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The U.S. market is also the most litigation-happy market in existance. I have true "German" customers who have low profile tires (AMG packages) that don't bitch about bending wheels & blowing tires because they know what they bought and they accept the responsibility accordingly. In fact, they maintain their cars better than the typical "American." Tire pressures are usually spot on when they're checked during routine services. The "American" buyers are more "whiney" about it when they bend a wheel or blow a tire. In fact, it's one of my "American" clients that started the class-action against Benz over bending the AMG wheels, claiming he & the others in the suit were not "aware that they were more prone to damage." Meanwhile the hood isn't even opened between services to check oil level let alone check tire pressures by the "American" owner. The German owner expects everything from their car but is not afraid to pay for what is needed to keep it in top form where the American owner mis-treats & abuses their car while still expecting the world from it. On my desk right now is "Mr Downs" 2001 SL500 with 39,500 miles on it. It has not had an oil change since 11,700 miles, the front pads are nearly metal to metal, the tires have steel cords showing and the air dam is duct taped & painted over. At the same time is "Mr Helmut's" 2001 CLK55 with 49K on it. Oil has been changed every 5K, tires & alignment done when needed and in impecible condition. It has 18" Mono-Bloc II's with 235/40 & 265/35's on it and he has not blown a tire or bent a wheel ever, this with daily drives into NYC... This Black Opal CLK55 is in fact the one car I would buy....
 

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The Reliability of our cars has fallen. Yes. But why ? INNOVATION !.
Did the japs ( or the US ) innovate anything important in the last few
years ? NO !. If you using stone-old technologies you're more reliable
but Boooooooring !
although you may want to take notice how honda introduced variable valve timing to a mass production vehicle in the 92 nsx, then transfered that same technology to the civic in 93. and that porsche variocam came to market oh 7-8 years later. i would say thats a pretty important innovation. and thats technology available in a vehicle that cost 10k in early 1990's USD.

or you might want to consider how the S2000's motor creates 240hp at 8800 rpm that qualifies for ultra low emmisions vehicle (ULEV) AND 30+ MPG. and its reliable. the closest hp/liter from germany? well its turbocharged and costs at least 5 X S2000.

or you can read an american magazine that discusses at length the virtues of the 35k USD evo lancer vs. the 65k porsche carrera 4S, then compares just a lightly modified evo (<3k to complete the modifications) and its trouncing of the 4$, i mean 4S.

please, enjoy: http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0309scc_evogermany/index.html

although i will acknowledge there's some great innovation coming out of germany nowadays. like supercharged AMG V8s (oh wait, that was popular in American muscle cars about 30-40 years ago), or iDrive in BMW (which is just sooo unboooring, right?)
 

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What automotive intovations have the germans come up with recently? :???:
 

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KolbenFresser said:
I just had to laugh for 10minutes.....
Now able to use the keyboard again: ...

I'll never give up any german car for a "simple japanese Machine, that
moves" or a US-car that is state of the art of the late 80ies.

greetz,

Der
KolbenFresser
KolbenFresser - Like wise, thanks for the laugh ... but have you seen some of the Japanese innovations ? Should do a little reading and look beyond the "German's engineering" wall, but they are pretty impressive nonetheless from this side of the pond. That said, most of us here are VW owners and love our cars. Boring as they may seem to some, but the mass over here prefers reliability over "exciting" yet high maintenance vehicles. VW in general does not have the reliability reputation as let's say a Toyota or Honda. Aside from the massive marketing campagne from car manufacturers, word of mouth is gold over here, this explains why Toyota/Lexus out sell VW/Audi in volume.

So boooring yes, but at least it runs :wink: ... hope this explains a little about us dumb American mentality over here. :wink:
 

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Cadet X said:
or you can read an american magazine that discusses at length the virtues of the 35k USD evo lancer vs. the 65k porsche carrera 4S, then compares just a lightly modified evo (<3k to complete the modifications) and its trouncing of the 4$, i mean 4S.
CadetX,

You're just talking about "introduction".
I'm talking about invention !

About 50% of all major inventions concerning cars are "made in
Germany", ( just a few: Diesel-engines, Otto-engines, ABS, ESP,
Xenonlights, Common-rail-injection, Pumpedüse-injection, Airbags,
VNT's .....).
The Rest spreads between the Rest of Europe and Japan.
I think the only real US-inventions have been the "gas guzzler" and
the "burn-out" :D ( ... please correct me, if wrong). US-carmakers today
still sell cars with engines, which have been engineered in the 70ies !!!
( e.g most of the pick-up's are equipped with ancient V8's)

Evo vs. Porsche:
Man, HOW can this magazine compare pieces of art like an M3, S4 or 911
with an 4cyl-turbocharged Mitsubishi :crazy: . That's like comparing the
USS Enterprise with an rescue-boat. Any german journalist who would
dare writing an article like this without the comment "yes, folks, it' only a
joke" would immidiately sit in front of his boss.

In Europe, ansolutely anybody, who is able to affort one of the tested
germans would even think about buying the jap, cause his "house-mate"
perhaps drives the "civil-version" of this "moving machine".

btw: my '95 Audi A4 already had a variable Valvetiming (and 5 V)

greetz,

Der
KolbenFresser
 

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KolbenFresser said:
Sharky said:
Germans (and presumably the other Euros who see far greater numbers of German cars than Americans do) have always accepted glitches becuase they don't know any better. They are seemingly unaware that there are cars built in the world which don't require unscheduled repairs for 100k or so.
Sharky,

The Reliability of our cars has fallen. Yes. But why ? INNOVATION !.
Did the japs ( or the US ) innovate anything important in the last few
years ? NO !. If you using stone-old technologies you're more reliable
but Boooooooring !


KolbenFresser
Ok, read both paragraphs back to back.

Thanks for making my point for me, Mr. German Man.

You just justified poor quality in the cars YOU love by saying wow, look how much innovation.

Have a nice day.
 

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Sharky said:
... look how much innovation.
Sharky,

no progress without innovation.
Newly introduced features are buggy, that' s quite normal.

Do you want progress or not ?
Obviously not. That may be the reason for Millions of US cititzens driving
pick-ups and SUV's which are on a technical level, we over here had in the 70ies.

And YOU call us "OLD Europe" ?? :D

greetz

Der
KolbenFresser
 
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