Volkswagen Passat Forum banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, new suspension. Everything runs very smoothly and you hardly feel the bumps. But when you make a sharp left or right turn on a corner, you hear a scraping sound like the dust shield hitting the rotor. I thought that would be impossible as the rotor and dust shield are basically attached at the same base. But the sound is truly like the dust shield scraping on something that’s turning. Any ideas?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,623 Posts
Check your dust shield clearance on the back side of the rotor. You should have at least a couple of millimeters clearance.

Other thing, I saw that you had an issue with the wheel bearing coming apart. It's not really a good thing for that to happen, however the bearing can re-assembled and pressed into the upright (steering knuckle).
Where I'm going with this is...
If the bearing wasn't re-assembled properly and pressed into the steering knuckle fully seated, there's a remote chance you can getting some bearing slop on the wheel bearing flange and the outer / outboard cv hub will rub on the inside of the steering knuckle during turns.
Easiest way to check for that condition, jack up the front end and check the tire at 3 & 9 o'clock and at 12 & 6 o'clock positions.
Assuming all of the control arm joints are good and tight, if the tire has any slop in it, the wheel bearing will be the culprit.
This could also cause the rotor to rub on the dust shield if the shield is in very close proximity to the rotor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Thanks. When I popped the bearing, I figured it was toast so I got a new one. The dust shield does have sufficient clearance and when I turn the wheel completely and have someone hold the steering wheel, nothing else touches it.

So, this didn’t happen from the get go. Sorry, there’s more to the story. It was all fine at first. Then when turning right into a driveway in town, the whole assembly gets lifted to go up the ramp of the entrance while turning in. I heard a significant POP sound, and immediately after the dust shield getting rubbed. I know I didn’t have all of the suspension bolts (upper/lower - inside/outside sway bar) tightened to spec yet as I was waiting for an appointment to get it done. Everything was tight, but not to spec.

From what you’ve said, is it possible that the suspension bolts not being torqued properly would somehow allow too much travel and thus the bearing got popped and now it travels too much allowing the dust shield to hit the rotor? In other words, did I ruin both bearings because the suspension wasn’t bolted down properly? The noise happens on both sides after that initial popping sound. The bearings don’t howl when driving straight, even at highway speeds - the metal sliding sound only happens when you turn - both sides
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,623 Posts
The suspension bolts aren't a concern in my opinion. What about the axle shaft bolt though, how tight was that?
I guess I'm a bit concerned about how the wheel bearings were pressed in.
I know a few of past members have successfully installed new wheel bearings at home without a hydraulic press, but it takes some doing. Even with a hydraulic press and the custom spacers I've made specific to press the wheel bearings in and out of the steering knuckle requires some doing.

FYI,
the wheel bearing is a 2-piece double roller construction. It's imperative that the "two" halves get pressed into the steering knuckle the same amount and butted up against the lip / step inside the knuckle. The cv joint coming through the back half of the wheel bearing and the axle flange bolt when torqued down is actually what holds the 2 pieces of the bearing together.
The axle flange bolt torque is what also controls the amount of bearing 'pre-load' on the wheel bearings.

If those two bearing halves aren't sandwiched together (tightly) and fully seated against that lip in the steering knuckle the wheel bearing flange will have some kind of slop in it.

I know it sounds like I'm stuck on this point and making a big deal about it, but it really is mission critical with this type of wheel bearing on our cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The suspension bolts aren't a concern in my opinion. What about the axle shaft bolt though, how tight was that?
I guess I'm a bit concerned about how the wheel bearings were pressed in.
I know a few of past members have successfully installed new wheel bearings at home without a hydraulic press, but it takes some doing. Even with a hydraulic press and the custom spacers I've made specific to press the wheel bearings in and out of the steering knuckle requires some doing.

FYI,
the wheel bearing is a 2-piece double roller construction. It's imperative that the "two" halves get pressed into the steering knuckle the same amount and butted up against the lip / step inside the knuckle. The cv joint coming through the back half of the wheel bearing and the axle flange bolt when torqued down is actually what holds the 2 pieces of the bearing together.
The axle flange bolt torque is what also controls the amount of bearing 'pre-load' on the wheel bearings.

If those two bearing halves aren't sandwiched together (tightly) and fully seated against that lip in the steering knuckle the wheel bearing flange will have some kind of slop in it.

I know it sounds like I'm stuck on this point and making a big deal about it, but it really is mission critical with this type of wheel bearing on our cars.
No appologies needed! Please let it all fly!

I made my own hydraulic press frame for my 20 ton bottle jack - you can find pics of it earlier...

I did get the bearing into the housing right up against the lip. I used a matching outside diameter ring so there was no pressure on the inside of the bearing to get it there.

Then the hub was pressed into the bearing with a support ring underneath matching the inner diameter of the bearing. It was pressed in as far as it would go - so I'm hoping it seated on the shoulder of the inside flange of the bearing.

The axle bolt was properly torqued with the 180 degree turn as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AndreasPassat

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,623 Posts
No appologies needed! Please let it all fly!

I made my own hydraulic press frame for my 20 ton bottle jack - you can find pics of it earlier...

I did get the bearing into the housing right up against the lip. I used a matching outside diameter ring so there was no pressure on the inside of the bearing to get it there.

Then the hub was pressed into the bearing with a support ring underneath matching the inner diameter of the bearing. It was pressed in as far as it would go - so I'm hoping it seated on the shoulder of the inside flange of the bearing.

The axle bolt was properly torqued with the 180 degree turn as well.
Well that all sounds right. Lemme think about this a minute.
 

·
Registered
1998 Passat GLS Wagon AEB , 2003 Ford Ranger Edge
Joined
·
203 Posts
Thanks. When I popped the bearing, I figured it was toast so I got a new one. The dust shield does have sufficient clearance and when I turn the wheel completely and have someone hold the steering wheel, nothing else touches it.

So, this didn’t happen from the get go. Sorry, there’s more to the story. It was all fine at first. Then when turning right into a driveway in town, the whole assembly gets lifted to go up the ramp of the entrance while turning in. I heard a significant POP sound, and immediately after the dust shield getting rubbed. I know I didn’t have all of the suspension bolts (upper/lower - inside/outside sway bar) tightened to spec yet as I was waiting for an appointment to get it done. Everything was tight, but not to spec.

From what you’ve said, is it possible that the suspension bolts not being torqued properly would somehow allow too much travel and thus the bearing got popped and now it travels too much allowing the dust shield to hit the rotor? In other words, did I ruin both bearings because the suspension wasn’t bolted down properly? The noise happens on both sides after that initial popping sound. The bearings don’t howl when driving straight, even at highway speeds - the metal sliding sound only happens when you turn - both sides
An over torqued or loose axle bolt/nut is a pretty common cause of failure. Also unbalanced tires and not enough lubrication. Quality has gone down quite a bit too. I always like to pop off the bearing shield when getting a new bearing and have to add grease.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,623 Posts
Well that all sounds right. Lemme think about this a minute.
Well that was a long minute.
Here's what I can think of that might be hard to detect. Check to make sure you're not getting any rubbing at the wheel bearing flange to knuckle (yellow arrow) or cv flange to knuckle (red arrow).

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Automotive fuel system Gas Rim



As far as that "popping" sound goes, check to make sure that your front lower control arm (straight one) is fully seated in the tapered ball joint seat.
I haven't been around here for a couple of months so I'm not aware of what you've been up to lately.
You've got the B5.5 revised front lower control arm with the smaller ball joint. I thought I saw somewhere where you've got brand spanking new knuckles. Make sure the new knuckle has the tapered sleeve (red arrow) installed in it. It should already be installed but double check.

Bicycle part Tool Bicycle drivetrain part Nut Auto part







Also, there has been a long supply of improper flange nuts supplied in the control arm refresh kits.
The nut on the left was the supplied nut with many refresh kits, it's the wrong nut for the revised front lower control arm (smaller ball joint).
You must have the nut on the right for your suspension!

I'm not saying this is what happened to you, however, the symptom you describe can be a direct link to this nut issue.
If the smaller nut gets used on the control arm that has the smaller ball joint, the nut can slip through the bottom of the sleeve and the ball joint flops around.
This can cause the cv joint hub to rub on the lower front control arm during left and right turns.
One member here, years back actually had the control arm separate from the knuckle because of the wrong nut being used.

Automotive tire Wheel Household hardware Gas Wood
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
An over torqued or loose axle bolt/nut is a pretty common cause of failure. Also unbalanced tires and not enough lubrication. Quality has gone down quite a bit too. I always like to pop off the bearing shield when getting a new bearing and have to add grease.
This was the brand for the bearing:
Wheel Tire Automotive tire Rim Font


@AndreasPassat this was the front end kit:



Line Font Circle Automotive lighting Symmetry


and the housings (match for driver’s)

Font Auto part Elbow Pipe Tail


So, together…I took off the bolt, which wasn’t on to torque spec, and…

the bad side on passenger’s side:

Light Gas Auto part Window Tints and shades


and driver’s:

Gas Automotive tire Auto part Engineering Composite material


So, yes, without proper torque, the sleeve popped on both sides, just not as much on the driver’s side.

I foolishly tried to pull it back in with the bolt…

Automotive tire Tire Finger Wood Coin


but I did have a spare… so at least now I have a weekend project to pull both housings and press them back in properly!

thanks @AndreasPassat for the knowledge!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,623 Posts
If this picture is an accurate depiction of what the kit really is, the small nut on the front lower control arm (upper red circle) is wrong.
It should be just like the nut in the second circled area.

White Bicycle part Automotive lighting Auto part Automotive exterior



I don't know why they keep sending these kits out like this.
Mid to late 2000's the kits all had the larger nuts for both lower control arms, then all of a sudden one day...
Back in the day when I first discovered this whole mess I contacted ECS Tuning and told them about this and they acknowledged (back then) that this wasn't right. I also contacted FCP Euro, they pretty much blew me off.
I only contacted those places as they were my primary go-to places for parts.

It's been 5 years now since I've purchased a front refresh kit, I thought this would have been resolved.
Fortunately, over the years of me hoarding Passat parts, I've got a nice little supply of the larger flanged nut on hand for when I need to work on my cars again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It’s not that nut - you can see it above as I wrecked it and it matches the original. I think the image is just old. So, I got the housings out and tried to press with my pseudo-press but it was just getting dangerous. The amount of pressure I was applying was getting ridiculous and with nothing happening, I didn’t want an explosion of sorts. I’ll see if anyone has time in town to squish that back flush. I can’t imagine it would take long at all on a real press.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AndreasPassat

·
Moderator/Administrator
Joined
·
26,004 Posts
I’ve never had an issue with reusing the old nuts. They are either nylock or a squashed nut, so technically, they should prevent loosening.

Also, with the sleeves, I’ve had one or two come out. I just hammered them back in with a 5# sledge


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Also, with the sleeves, I’ve had one or two come out. I just hammered them back in with a 5# sledge
NOW you tell me... lol, I just dropped them off at the dealership... haha. But they're very nice to me after buying two cars and thousands in parts, so they may even do it for free as they said they'll squeeze it in today... get it??.. Squeeze it in... OMG, I'm so funny!! Haha! ahhh.... the joy
 
  • Like
Reactions: VAGguy and Urlik

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,769 Posts
I had that sleeve problem once with my 3.0 Audi, due to the same wrong-nut situation. The uprights are Aluminum on that car, so I put the sleeve in the freezer overnight, and left the upright in the sun until nice and warm. The sleeve then went back in with whacks from a plastic-headed hammer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
My sleeve didn’t come out all the way. The dealership wasn’t any help - their press can’t hold the housing… so - they said the torque from the bolt will pull it in… oh heck no.. 74 lb-ft isn’t budging anything haha.

so…. What do we know allows us to over-torque nuts? A lot…

Automotive tire Bumper Tool Automotive exterior Plastic bottle


gently hold the housing in a vice - not tight at all.

had a socket pretty much the size of the back - keep cranking… works like a charm!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So, life, is to some extent, about learning. My plan of holding the housing in the vice to better crank the nut on the bolt to pull in the sleeve wasn’t as clean cut as I’d hoped. I was putting on the brake caliper and the wheel once more, and I hear a pop… and suddenly the wheel is floppy… all I had left to do was the axle bolt :cautious:.

I guess some of the torque on the bolt went though the hub and twisted the bearing enough to make it weak enough to allow it to pop out from a bit more jostling from the rotor and wheel banging on to be bolted tight. My table vice wasn’t deep enough to grab the hub and housing dead centre. Since I don’t have the separation tools to separate the bearing from the hub, I’ll have to knock out both from the housing and press in a new set… $100 lesson plus the time…

I just thought I’d share this to prevent others (who don’t know better) from doing the same.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: PZ

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,769 Posts
I guess some of the torque on the bolt went though the hub and twisted the bearing enough to make it weak enough to allow it to pop out from a bit more jostling from the rotor and wheel banging on to be bolted tight. My table vice wasn’t deep enough to grab the hub and housing dead centre.
I'm confused. Were you using your vice to hold the suspension casting so you can seat that sleeve, or were you attempting to install the hub into the wheel bearing? Maybe a sketch would make this clear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,098 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You’re confused most likely because you can’t believe someone wouldn’t put the bearing housing in a vice on the shaft. You wouldn’t believe someone would be dumb enough to put angular stress on a bearing by clamping it on one half of the bearing because the whole hub wouldn’t fit into the vice to centre the pressure like having a bolt in there on the axle… Look up at my picture of the anti-seize bottle. See how there’s two boards holding the housing and the hub? Well the pressure there isn’t centred as the vice does t reach high enough on the boards I should have just pulled the whole thing out farther to hold the whole riser arm
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top