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Discussion Starter #1
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=558&e=1&u=/ap/20040324/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_pledge_of_allegiance

the 'one nation under god' part was added during the 50's, to counter those godless russians, in the cold war era.

the pledge did NOT have any god references in its initial form.

given that we pride ourselves on separation of religion from state, why do we need to include a deity reference when this is in a public school and not a religious school?

the 'who made you' challenge/question isn't very far from the 'one nation under god' phrase. if you are forced to repeat this over and over, year after year, this is the same as mind programming, isn't it?

surely there are ways to show our appreciation for our country and NOT have to show religious preference (?)
 

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"That's only because no atheists can be elected to office," Newdow responded.
hehehehehe.

Its not just the pledge that needs stripping of the reference to God, but its a start.

Anyway, the pledge kinda freaks me out... seeing a bunch of kids standing around with glazed-over eyes reciting something they really don't know the meaning of is pretty creapy.

 

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Discussion Starter #6
slight topic-fork: but does anyone have any FUNNY alternative 'pledges' that kids say?

I know that its very easy for kids to misunderstand the words and recite some pretty funny stuff.

like "one nation, under god, invisible". or "and to the republic, for richard stands"

;)

I KNOW that there are kids out there who are reciting this mindlessly, and perhaps mis-saying (mis-hearing) some words here and there.
 

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linux-works said:
given that we pride ourselves on separation of religion from state...
Says who? That's a bunch of crap. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. There is no such thing as "separation of church and state". If it's been said once, it's been said a thousand times. The establishment clause in the 1st Amendment was placed there to prevent the creation of state run religion...not to exlude the word "God" from every government building, statement, or piece of currency.

The First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 

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J-RAD said:
linux-works said:
given that we pride ourselves on separation of religion from state...
Says who? That's a bunch of crap. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. There is no such thing as "separation of church and state". If it's been said once, it's been said a thousand times. The establishment clause in the 1st Amendment was placed there to prevent the creation of state run religion...not to exlude the word "God" from every government building, statement, or piece of currency.
Isn't governmental endorsement of ANY religion a step toward a state run one? I think, and I may be wrong here, but the point was to avoid the opposite. A religion run State, giving preference t those of one creed vs. another. Isn't this what happens when you don't believe in God and are required to say the pledge including the God part?
 

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Here is something, not that I support it, that I have heard lately on the local talk shows about this subject:
"The constitution does not grant us the freedom from religion..."


And props to J-Rad!
 

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basically having "God" written on our currency, and recited in the pledge just screams "WE WELCOME ALL RELIGIONS IN AMERICA... AS LONG AS THEY BELIEVE IN OUR GOD"

that's irritating.
 

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I'm pretty sure the founder's of this country knew what they meant. If they intended "God" to be excluded from every thing they wouldn't have included the reference to the Creator in the Declaration of Independence and would not have allowed the words under God and such to displayed on government property and symbols.

What's irrating is when people try to state otherwise. :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
J-RAD said:
I'm pretty sure the founder's of this country knew what they meant. If they intended "God" to be excluded from every thing they wouldn't have included the reference to the Creator in the Declaration of Independence and would not have allowed the words under God and such to displayed on government property and symbols.

What's irrating is when people try to state otherwise. :wink:
how do you know what the founding fathers had in mind?

ever hear of the notion of 'compromise'? and even back then, there was PC. a good number of the FF's were not christians. but, like today, you had to talk the talk to get anywhere, politically.

also, there's nothing SACRED about the founding fathers and the constitution. its not like the bible or anything [grin] ;) what applied to a society 200 yrs ago does not mean 100.0% of it applies today.
 

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J-RAD said:
Says who? That's a bunch of crap. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. There is no such thing as "separation of church and state". If it's been said once, it's been said a thousand times. The establishment clause in the 1st Amendment was placed there to prevent the creation of state run religion...not to exlude the word "God" from every government building, statement, or piece of currency.
How about we change it to:
"...one Nation, under Allah,..."?
"...one Nation, under Yahweh,..."?
"...one Nation, under Zeus,..."?
"...one Nation, under Quetzalcoatl,..."?
"...one Nation, under Aten,..."?

Not to mention that there would be plenty of advocates for:
"...one Nation, under no god,..."
or
"...one Nation, ..."

If we want to mention god how do we decide which god to mention? Should we use your god's name? His god's name? If the government steps in and makes a choice, is that showing favoritism toward a certain religion? Doesn't that help set up a culture where that religion is a little bit more acceptable than another? Next thing you know, you have the same god's name on your money. And you have judges setting up shrines in government buildings to revelations from that same god. And it goes on and on. Surely these actions establish one religious perspective as being much more in favor, in the eyes of the government, than others.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
even the notion of a SINGLE GOD is at odds with some religions.

it just plain doesn't belong. sing your psalms on sunday, if you must; but free our children from this stuff when it comes to public schools. there's enough brainwashing in schools already!
 

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J-RAD said:
I'm pretty sure the founder's of this country knew what they meant. If they intended "God" to be excluded from every thing they wouldn't have included the reference to the Creator in the Declaration of Independence and would not have allowed the words under God and such to displayed on government property and symbols.
yeah and if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass a-hoppin'!

The founders were human. Humans believe in stuff and write it into what they are doing (even if it is something like the declaration of independance). Back in the day, they really just assumed everyone believed in god.

And yes there were many non-christians among the founders, but they still believed in god. Doesn't mean I'm going to start, or that they were right to put it in all their documents and currency, or make people put their hand on a bible before being "sworn in" or taking an oath (what's that all about?).

It was over 200 years ago. Since most everyone in the country probably believed in god anyway ('cept fer them heathen injuns...), it wasn't a big deal. Now the population of athiests (and other people who don't believe in the Christian God) is much larger, and more vocal. It becomes a big deal. It is a big deal. Eventually we're gonna have to deal with it by changing the way we are represented. The symbols of our country that make reference to God are outdated.
 

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hotani said:
The symbols of our country that make reference to God are outdated.
Says you.

linux-works said:
how do you know what the founding fathers had in mind?
You mean other than by the fact they wrote the documents?

The fact is, whether you like it or not, it's a core part of this country. The fact that you've both stated you want to re-work the Constitution speaks volumes about your point of view. Regardless, it won't change. The court, being the wuss' they are, will toss this case on a technicality. Regardless, I guess I'll just have to take a little extra joy in knowing this irritates you guys! :wink:
 

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1. Since when is the phrase "under God" essential to the Pledge of Allegiance? Isn't the pledge about proclaiming loyalty to country? Don't we pledge our allegiance to our deity of choice at worship?

2. I think this case is a silly pissing match that could have been settled quietly and cheaply at a much lower level - like at the kid's school. It NEVER should have seen the light of a courtroom.
 
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