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Discussion Starter #1
Hello, I have a 2003 1.8t Passat automatic. Earlier today I parked my car, and 5 minutes later I went to go move it and the starter showed no signs of life. No clicking or no turning. I determined that the starter is fine by putting direct power on it, so I began to mess with the relay. I pulled the 185 relay from under the steering wheel and bridged the left and right connections. After that, the car started right up with no problems. I tried another relay and that didn't work. I'm assuming that something is telling this relay to not allow the car to start, I just have no idea what it is. I believe my neutral/ park sensor is good because the gear that I have selected shows up on the dash, and my reverse lights go on when I select reverse. I am really stuck here and would appreciate any help. Thanks a lot.
 

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The ECU tells the relay it is O.K. to start (car not being stolen), any number of things could be stopping the start condition. The #12 and #13 on the 13 position relay panel are the interlock and start relays. Do not right off hand remember when VW removed relay #12 from the sequence and made the interlock/anti theft sequence go elsewhere (maybe dash control board ?) So you might not have a #12. I wish, as many others here on this forum do, had a dollar for every post of a "no start" condition that was posted. This is from my experience, if you have both relays, #12 & #13 remove from pane, open covers up carefully ,examine contacts and clean. If you polish them, use crocus cloth and solvent clean. If OEMs you can disassemble easily by pulling gently on the little "keyhole" spring clip. Not knowing the history, mileage,etc if not done I would bite the bullet and replace the ignition switch, not so much as to take it out of the equation,but they are a common failure point, get a good quality one. Will follow this post and if still no start shoot you a wiring diagram of the PND/multifunction switch, it is also a remote possibility, it gets and sends info via the TCM to the ECU.....so if TCM has had the notorious water issues that should be looked at later.
 

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Is there a relay in position #12 ?
Was the relay that you bypassed in position #13 ?

Assuming it is relay #13.
With everything connected (relay in socket) and ignition switched to START, and gear lever in park.
Check voltage between ground and each of the 2 pins that connect to the relay coil (one at a time)
If there is 12V on both pins, there is a problem with the start inhibit switch (actuated by the gear lever)
If there is no voltage on either pin, replace the ignition switch. (Voltage is supplied from Ign Sw terminal 15 to the relay coil)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The relay that I bypassed to make the car start is in position 4, the 185 relay. I do not have a #12 relay. When turning the key, there is power supplied to the right connector of the #4 relay, and nothing is given to the #13 relay (53). I determined that the 185 is still good, and I replaced the #13 relay and had no luck.

Once started, I went for a drive and the car drove fine with no check engine light.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I just put a new ignition switch in and there was no change. I’m not too sure where to go from here.
 

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the " # location " written in pen was my notation pointing to where the fuse number is molded into the panel.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yes I’m not sure why, but the relay in #4 on that diagram is what gives power to my starter. I’m not sure why my car is different than all the diagrams I can find online.

Anyway, today my power windows, truck/fuel door buttons, and locking either from the key fob or from the key way in the door have all stopped working. I believe these are symptoms of a bad CCM or CCM connections. I will take a look at the condition of the module and it’s connections tomorrow.
 

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the " # location " written in pen was my notation pointing to where the fuse number is molded into the panel.
 

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OP, do you have manual A/C controls or Climatronic?

The relay arrangement gets modified by various features or options, e.g. engine, A/C. For example, if you have manual A/C, you'll have the 384 relay in position 4 noted in the picture to control the A/C clutch; it's not a normal relay, as it has timing functions and extra pins. If you have Climatronic, you will instead have relay 367 in position 3. It's an ordinary relay; all the timing functions are in the Climatronic head unit. These differences are indicated as "deviations" in each schematic in Bentley.

Also note that the numbers printed on the relays aren't gospel--sometimes people swap them around (the "ordinary" relays).

Regarding the CCM, etc.: the windows should work independently (i.e. from their individual door) without a CCM. Check fuse 14, particularly since your fuel door doesn't work (it's a simple circuit, powered from Fuse 14).

Back to your original issue: the relay in position 13, Park/Neutral interlock, gets +12V from the ignition switch, but gets ground (to the coil) via the Park/Neutral switch. So, to know that's working, you'll need to check continuity between ground and terminal 6 of that relay socket (brown/white if you can see the wire). There are many places in our cars where ground is switched, not positive like you'd expect.
 

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If you don't have a relay in position 12 on the relay panel, the CCM or its wiring can not prevent cranking.
Relays #12 & #13 are the only relay that can affect cranking.
When it started with relay #4 jumpered, that would indicate that you moved a bad connection while fitting the jumper.
I suggest you check relay #13 socket for a loose or burnt connector.

Something appears to be wrong with your previous test.
Could you remove relay #13 and with the key in the start position, check the voltage between ground and each of the 4 used socket connectors.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Relay position #4 has positive on the right connection when I turn the key all the way to the starter position, has constant ground on the top, and nothing else. Relay #13 has ground on two connectors (I don’t remember which ones) and has no change when I turn the key to start. To be able to get to work this weekend, I took the relay out of #4 and took it apart and temporarily rigged it so that it’s essentially bridged. Since then, the car has had no problems starting.

I changed the fuse for window/ gas/ trunk controls and those have been working, but the lock from the key fob or the outside of the drivers door still does not work. The unlock works fine.
 

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The door locks, windows etc are a separate issue, not related to engine cranking.
Have you checked the relay position numbers against the diagram posted by cchief22 ?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Yes and I have confirmed that it is relay #4 that supplies power to the starter. If the weather permits later, I will record a video showing how it works and will post it here.
 

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After looking at the relay "deviations" in the Bentley schematics, things start to make a little sense.

OP has a 2003 1.8T automatic transmission and manual A/C controls built from May 2003 (no alarm relay). Therefore, Bentley schematics 49, 50, & 57 will apply along with their relay deviations:
  • Schematic 57: position 1 has Coolant Fan control relay 214
  • Schematic 57: position 3 has A/C cut-off control module 384 (thus it's not in position 4)
  • Schematic 49: position 4 (on 6-position relay panel, not 13-position) has Fuel Pump relay 372 (rather than Fuel Pump relay 208) [edited]
  • Schematic 50 (no deviations)
I see a 372 relay in the bottom row, position IV, in the video; [edit: that's consistent with the schematic 49 deviation].

[edit sentence deleted] Per Etka, the fuel pump relay in position 4 should be part number 4D0 951 253, which I believe has 5 pins.

OP, are you certain of the relay originally installed in position 4?

(Side note: there is another connection to the fuel pump relay shown on schematic 50/2 (S3/2, pin 22), which doesn't appear on schematic 49/7. I can't explain that one.)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Yes that relay has always been the 185 relay. Audi/ VW part # for that relay is 3b0 911 251. (Just for clarification, the relay that I was holding is the one for location #4. It looked like 153 in the video but it was 185.)

The missing relay down there I’m pretty sure if for the daytime running lights, which I pulled when I did a hid conversion about a year ago.

Is there any kind of wiring diagram that shows what controls the ground that causes the relay #4 to actuate? It’s the bottom connector for that relay.
 

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I see a 372 relay in the bottom row, position IV, in the video; I'm not sure what should be there.
Position IV is the fuel pump relay, specified as a #205 (shown in my Bentley manual post/picture) but I believe VW upgraded to a 372 as noted (schematic 49)......the 5th. smaller "bayonet" on the 5 pole relays is for a resistor circuit, I believe to minimize arcing/pitting of contact surfaces. When he puts power to the relay slot I believe he is powering up the whole 13 position relay panel buss bar. Possibly check panel to confirm integrity.
 

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The relay in position 4 appears to be the position 12 relay.
It is just an anti theft device, it is not a safety device.
Relay 13 prevents starting when not in park or neutral. (And it is working correctly)

I suggest you remove the relay from position 4 and fit a permanent jumper across the socket.
Do not leave the relay in with cheated contacts, it could cause problems with the CCM.
Relay 12 (4 in your case) is an electronic relay and is grounded by the CCM. A standard relay must not be used in this position.

99561
 
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