[JudoMcl]

I have replaced my water pump and timing belt once before with no problem. I am not an experienced mechanic, but I am learning. I got myself into a bind this time and I really need some help.

Recently, I needed to replace the water pump and had to remove my timing belt. I used the camshaft locking bar to align the camshafts and also used the clamping bolt to assure that the crankshaft didn't move from TDC. I had no problem replacing the water pump, but ran into significant problems getting the timing correct. I have taken the timing belt off 4 times and reinstalled it. Each time I get an error for bank A for the camshaft position sensor and cylinders 1,2 and 3 are misfiring. The engine is running really rough at idle.

I don't know what I did wrong. The locking bar fit on the camshafts correctly and I following the detailed instructions carefully.

The last time I removed the timing belt I also removed the value covers. I put the camshaft locking tool on to keep the camshafts in alignment. The right side (drivers) camshaft notches align with the arrows (near the chain). On the left side, the camshaft notches are to the left a few degrees of the arrows. If I turn the exhaust camshaft clockwise so the camshaft notches align with the arrows, the camshaft locking tool will not connect between the two camshafts. I didn't think this was possible!

Did I really screw this thing up somehow? Can someone help? I don't know what to do. Help!

 

[PZ]

This does sound rather odd. You mention the crank clamping bolt, did you mean the lock pin? Just want to be sure you used the correct tool.

Perhaps some pics of the camshaft notches/marks on each head and then one of the lock bar showing how far off it is will help.

Are the cam locking tabs (where the lock bar attaches), properly attached, not angled?

 

[AndreasPassat]

Along with the questions PZ asked which are important questions to answer, how old is the timing belt you are using? Is it stretched?
It sounds like the exhaust cam pulley on bank one might be not be in the correct position. Meaning the pulley has rotated on the exhaust camshaft tapered seat. That's probably why the cam bar doesn't fit right when aligning the arrows up.
Post up pictures if possible, and as much other info as possible.

 

[Tomvw]

If the exhaust cam notch does not align with the arrow when the cam lock bar is installed, one of the following is the cause.
1. The plate on the front of the camshaft is not fitted correctly
2. The cam lock bar was not made correctly
3. The cam lock bar has been distorted
4. The camshaft is broken

 

[JudoMcl]

I used the special tool that is used to keep the crankshaft from moving from TDC. They called it the clamping bolt in the Bentley Manual. Sorry, I am not real familiar with some of the names. I'll try to be clearer.

Each time (4 times) I removed and replaced the belt, I had the error codes of the camshaft position sensor and misfires of cyl 1,2 and 3. I assumed somehow the position of the camshafts were off, but I made sure the machined flat spot on the camshaft married up to the diamond shaped washers and then the camshaft clamp was attached. The camshaft sprockets spun freely on the tappered camshafts with hand tightened bolts. I replaced the hydraulic tensioner and the tensioning lever because I thought I might have an issue there. I also replaced the roller because it wasn't spinning without a little resistance. The belt was fitted in a counter clockwise fashion starting at the crank. I used tensioner roller to slowly release the pin the the hydraulic tensioner. Next, I pretensioned the belt. Then, I tightened the camshaft sprocket bolts to 41lbs. I removed the camshaft clamp. From there, I spun the crank twice and checked that the timing mark lined up. Finally, I put everything else together and tested it. Still had the same rough idling and some back fires.

After doing it three times, I was pretty sure, the camshaft clamp aligned the cams correctly on the diamond shaped washers. Also, the crankshaft was always at TDC. With rough running I assumed the coordination of the valves and the crank had to be off a little. From that point I assumed I should look at the valves. I took off the valve covers to take a look. This was new to me so I'll tell what I know. I thought the 2 arrows near the camshaft adjuster should line up with the notches. I think the notches are on the camshaft, but I have never taken it apart before so I'm not sure. On the left side (passenger) the arrows were about a 1/4 inch to the right of the notches. On the right side (driver), they were spot on.

I used the camshaft clamp to turn the left sprocket (passager) clockwise to align the arrows with the notches under the value cover. At that point, the big hole in the diamond washer on the left side was about 4 o'clock. I had to turn it back to 3 o'clock to reinstall the camshaft clamp between the two exhaust camshafts. The arrows line up with the notches under the value cover and the camshaft clamp fits correctly. Ok, also, before I moved the left camshaft, I removed the locking pin and rotated CCW about 35 degrees on the crankshaft. This was the first time I did that since I saw it in several posts. I assumed that takes some pressure off the cams caused by the values which should make it easier to align the cams(?).

That is where I am at now. I am going to go ahead a order a new belt just to be sure. Looks like I changed the timing belt at 114K and now I am at 154k. Seems a little premature, but just to be sure.

I have the pictures. I need to figure out how to put them up here. My iphone has too many "dimensions" to upload. I'll look at that tomorrow and post.

Thanks for all your help,
JudoMcl

 

[AndreasPassat]

Looking forward to those pictures.

 

[Tomvw]

Do I have this right ?
You turned the front end of the camshaft about 30 degrees clockwise to align the marks at the back of the camshaft,
then you turned the front end of the camshaft about 30 degrees counter clockwise and fitted the cam locking bar,
and at this point the marks at the back of the camshaft were aligned.

If this is correct, you have a broken camshaft.

Pictures would help.

 

[JudoMcl]

I am still trying to get the pictures shrunk to I can post them. I took them with my iphone and it is too high of resolution to post them. Any idea how I can shrink them so they can be posted?

In response to you TomVW, let’s start with a frame of reference. The large hole on the diamond shaped washer should be at 3 o’clock on the left camshaft. To align the marks at the back of the camshaft (notches to arrows), I had to turn the camshaft to about 4 o’clock. Then, like you said, I turned it back to 3 o’clock to fit the bar and the marks aligned.

So I need to replace the camshaft.

Since I haven’t taken the head of an engine apart before, I have some questions regarding the camshaft. I need some education on this. Is the camshaft a single piece that the notch is on one end and the tapper is on the other? If this is the case, I would think the notch would always move when the camshaft was turned either way. Or can the notch move independently? The notch moved CW when I turned the camshaft CW, but the notch didn’t move when I turned the camshaft CCW.

Is it problematic picking up a camshaft from a salvage yard? I mean is it usually not a problem to get a used one.

 

[JudoMcl]

Ok, I found out how to shrink the pictures. Another technical challenge, but in the computer realm.

Before I took all these pictures, I had the cam locking bar on. I took it off just to take the pictures, but nothing moved. Also, this was AFTER I turned the left camshaft from 4 o’clock to 3 o’clock.

This is the left side diamond washer. The camshaft has a little scaring on the very end but it is not deep enough to affect the washer seating securely against the long flat part of the camshaft.

This is the left side (passage) exhaust arrow lining up with the notch.

This is the left side (passage) intake arrow lining up with the notch.

This is the right side (drivers) diamond washer.

This is the right side (driver) exhaust arrow lining up with the notch

This is the right side (driver) intake arrow lining up with the notch

 

[KSEADUB]

Your passenger side exhaust cam end is quite chewed up. What happened? That steel is pretty hard to mar.

It might just be the perspective of the photo, but it looks like the diamond is cocked slightly relative to the keyway (flat spot) on the camshaft. If that is the case, the cam locking bar will not put the passenger side exhaust cam (and intake cam, since they are attached via the chain) in the right spot relative to the cams in the drivers side head, and the crankshaft.

Just to be clear, you have not removed any of the camshafts from the vehicle, correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JudoMcl]

Thanks for your response KSEADUB.

The last time I changed the belt I didn't have the diamond shaped washer on correctly and I tried to tighten it. That caused the surface scaring. The flat side of the diamond shaped washer currently connects with the entire flat side of the camshaft. I don't think the picture shows that very well. I took the picture with a flash and I it is causing shadows that make it look off.

I have NOT removed any of the camshafts at this point.

 

[KSEADUB]

Ok.

Do you have access to Vag-com? There are measuring blocks that will tell you how closely the crank position and cam positions are aligned for each bank. This would confirm that the damage to the camshaft end isn’t messing with your ability to set the timing.

One other thought occurred... when you placed the crank pin in to lock the crank at TDC, did you ensure the pin was fully seated? Sometimes you need to rock the crank back and forth a bit to get the pin fully in there. Additionally, with the pin in, how close is the crank pulley mark to the TDC mark on the front of the block?

EDIT: going back and reading your previous posts has me convinced that the marred end of the passenger side exhaust cam is messing with your ability to get the passenger head in time. You haven’t removed the cams from the head, so we have to assume that the exhaust to intake timing in the passenger head is correct. If there was an issue with setting the crank at TDC, as I ask about above in this post, that would affect timing on both the passenger AND drivers head.

The measuring blocks in Vag-com will let you see how far out the timing is on the passenger side head. The photos you post above looks like its close to correct, but perhaps off just enough to cause problems?

Was the crank lock pin installed when you took those photos?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JudoMcl]

KSEADUB I don’t have a vag-com and not sure where to acquire access to one. Any suggestions? Can they be rented maybe? How much do they cost? I only have a generic scan tool at the moment.

I thought the locking pin was fully seated. I did check it at least once during the 4 times that I removed the belt and re-installed it by installing the locking pin and trying to turn the crank manually. After I did it that time and knowing that the crank was right on TDC and I had put the lock pin in, I assumed it was fully seated each ensuing time. Each time I went through the process I did make sure the TDC mark was right on. I’ll look into that again.

I believe the crank lock pin was NOT IN when I took the pictures. I am on the road for work for 3 weeks so I am not at home to check it. I believe I turned the crank 30 to 45 degrees CCW to take the value spring pressure off the camshaft so the camshaft wouldn’t turn. Prior to turning the crank 30 to 45 degrees, the left camshaft would turn CCW about 30 to 45 degrees CCW at any time I removed the camshaft locking bar. I realize I have to put the crank back at TDC and lock it when I try installing the belt again. I assumed that with the value covers off now, I can look at the alignment of the arrows and notches (exhaust and intake) should it move when the camshaft gears are tightened with the belt installed. In essence, I will know pretty readily if everything is lined up prior to putting it all together to test it. Do you agree with this logic? I could be totally off, but it makes sense to me from my limited knowledge.

Thanks for your suggestions. I will look into them more closely. If you can let me know about the questions I have about the vag-com, that would really be helpful. I understand that the generic scan tools are woefully inadequate when dealing with a VW.

Thanks again!

 

[Tomvw]

Can you turn the washer back and forth about 30 degrees without that end of the shaft turning ?

It appears that the camshaft is not broken but is damaged.
You probably could align it correctly in the normal way, except that when tightening the bank 1 cam pulley hold
the cam in the correct timing position by gripping the shaft between lobes. (in an area that is not machined)

You should replace the diamond washer and camshaft, or replace the washer and get the shaft repaired by a machine shop.

 

[Tomvw]

FYI: The only reason for turning the crank about 45 degrees CCW from TDC, is to take all pistons away from the top while working on the cams.
With the crank in this position you can turn the camshafts as much as you like, without any fear of valves contacting the pistons.

 

[JudoMcl]

Thanks Tomvw. Unfortunately I have to be away for a few weeks for work, so I'll have to check it when I get back home.

I don't think the washer can be moved back and forth 30 degrees without the end of the shaft turning, but I will have to confirm that when I get back home.

When you say to grip it between the lobes, I am not sure what the lobes are. Sorry, I am just not sure the about the terminology. If I screwed something up, I don't want to make it worse. Are the lobes the "bumps" on the camshaft that move the values under the value cover area?

Thanks for the extra information on why the crank is turned 45 degrees CCW from TDC. Different posts said to do that but no one explained the purpose for doing that.

 

[Tomvw]

The lobes are the machined "bumps" on the shaft, as I said before only grip the shaft in an area that is not machined.

You said you could turn the washer about 30 degrees without the back of the camshaft moving.
If you can turn the front end of the camshaft any amount without the back end moving, the shaft is broken.

To fix this, the exhaust camshaft must be removed. I think it is likely that valves have already been bent, which would require removing the head.

I think you may be in over your head, you should think carefully before proceding.
It might be wise to get it fixed by a professional. If you want to try it yourself, I am happy to help where I can.

 

[JudoMcl]

Thanks Tomvw. I just got back home last week and went back to fixing the Passat.

I ended up getting a passenger side exhaust camshaft from a salvage yard and installed it. It wasn't too bad of a job to do. It just took me quite a while since I double and triple checked everything. That did the trick!

I think when I put the diamond washer on the first time I tried to put it together, it wasn't seated properly and caused that slight scaring on the top of the camshaft. Although it was slight, it must have allowed free play of a couple of degrees. Fortunately, it was not enough to result in bent values. Thank God! I don't know if I would have had the energy fix the head if that was the case!

I ended up replacing all the value cover gaskets, half moon, cam shaft seals, and cam shaft tensioner seal on both sides. I hope it doesn't leak for awhile. It was a pain to do. I understand that the B5 is known for lots of oil leaks. Someone helped me change the oil seals 3 years ago, I hope it lasts longer than that this time. I took a lot of time to put the seals in to make sure everything is correct. We'll see.

Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it!

 

[Tomvw]

Happy to see you got it fixed.

Did you fully service the PCV system ?
If there is any clogging of the PCV system you will get oil leaks soon.
I replaced my gaskets and the PCV system about 4 years ago, and still no sign of an oil leak.

 

[jjpark]

Glad you got things working. To answer your question about the scan tool. Get a 409.1 cable off Ebay. 10-20 bucks. Do not use any disc that comes with it as they are know to have some sort of virus. Go to Ross Tech and download their 'Lite' version on your laptop. It is free.

This will give you your scan tool.