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And I don't think rape, inbreeding and murder should ever be compared to homosexuality. That's just wrong. They do plenty of good for their communities and two people of the same sex does not hurt anyone. Just because gay marriage is legal and they have more rights, doesn't mean the human race is going to just magically die out. People aren't going to wake up and be like "Oh my god, now that it's legal to get married, I'm gonna be gay!" That's not realistic. The human race is growing at an incredibly rapid rate, gays don't effect it in the least bit.



Religion is like a penis. It's okay for you to have one and be proud of it, but don't go trying to shove it don't people's throats.
Wow, now I am shoving my religion down peoples throats. Sorry, I thought I was expressing my opinion on Gay marriage and why I believe it's wrong..........be careful, people might think by your response that you aren't "tolerant" of my views and therefore are hateful.
 

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I break for old people
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I'm do tolerate religious people. I think the message they preach about not killing each other and all that good stuff is positive. What I don't believe in is that a flaming bush and a snake can talk or a guy two thousands years was the son of god. All the stories are the same, born to a virgin mother, yada yada. I just don't they have any write to decide who one person can love, and calling gay people "unnatural" or "un god like" is just cruel. Who are simple minded humans to decide what is right and what is wrong? You don't know what god wants or what he think is right. Neither do the simple humans who wrote the bible or any other fictional book.
 

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comments in bold above.
Ok, well lets say the big bang theory or whatever view you hold on creation has a male and female reproducing.

Without religion, there is no moral compass. And yes of course we need direction to tell us what is right and wrong, otherwise there would not be any action that is labeled right or wrong because there is no point of reference.

I am sorry to inform you that the founding fathers were in fact religious, please read any founding documents and tell me how many times the word God appears.

However misguided you feel my sense of truth is, I have the bible on my side that has over 40 books was written over a period of 400 years by 66 different authors that all tell the same story.

Again thats like saying one does not need a compass to know where North, South,East, West is. Without the compass there is no direction.

If you are going to tell me an analogy does not work you need to throw me a bone as to why. I think that is a good one.
 

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I'm do tolerate religious people. I think the message they preach about not killing each other and all that good stuff is positive. What I don't believe in is that a flaming bush and a snake can talk or a guy two thousands years was the son of god. All the stories are the same, born to a virgin mother, yada yada. I just don't they have any write to decide who one person can love, and calling gay people "unnatural" or "un god like" is just cruel. Who are simple minded humans to decide what is right and what is wrong? You don't know what god wants or what he think is right. Neither do the simple humans who wrote the bible or any other fictional book.

Of course I do not know what right and wrong is, that is why us simple humans need the bible to tell us. The creator of the universe is much wiser than any of us, so we follow his lead on telling us what is right and wrong.

The mistake is thinking you have a choice to pick and choose what to believe about Jesus my friend, the bible does not give you that choice. The same bible that teaches not killing each other is the same bible that says Homosexuality is wrong, it is the same bible that says all human beings are loved by God.
It is us "simple humans" that try and argue with God and say that Homosexuality is not a sin, when he is clear bout that subject. So instead of accepting God's direction, we tell ourselves God does not exist or "Jesus was a good person" but he was not the savior so I do not need to follow his direction. The claims that Jesus makes in the bible are so outrageous they leave a person with only two options; either he was the most self deceived, lying hypocrite that ever walked the face of the earth, or He truly was the Son of God.
 

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I break for old people
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I understand you points, but let me ask you something.

If when you die and you find out you were completely wrong, will you accept whatever god is right? Say for instance jews, or muslims or Hindus or any other group is actually right, will you bow down and accept it? Or better yet, what if scientology or evolution is right, and there's just nothing.
 

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Ok, well lets say the big bang theory or whatever view you hold on creation has a male and female reproducing.

Without religion, there is no moral compass. And yes of course we need direction to tell us what is right and wrong, otherwise there would not be any action that is labeled right or wrong because there is no point of reference.

I am sorry to inform you that the founding fathers were in fact religious, please read any founding documents and tell me how many times the word God appears.

However misguided you feel my sense of truth is, I have the bible on my side that has over 40 books was written over a period of 400 years by 66 different authors that all tell the same story.

Again thats like saying one does not need a compass to know where North, South,East, West is. Without the compass there is no direction.

If you are going to tell me an analogy does not work you need to throw me a bone as to why. I think that is a good one.
I find it sad that you base your life and beliefs on a book that's been written/re-typed so many times by so many religious sects that no one person can actually say it's of an original text. I grew up in a traditional Italian, Roman Catholic family and even my aged parents know not to take the bible literally. As a matter of fact, I've seen so much of a "faith-based" religious society fail, I'm no longer what's called a practicing Catholic. My own moral compas as you call it is what saved my own life with the decisions I made, not some book telling me I'm going to hell unless I drop to my knees and ask an entity to forgive my shortcomings.
And no, you don't need a compass to tell you which way is north, south etc.


Sir, blind faith is what is destroying society today. One can be of a faith and still have moral character, but if that moral character/faith asks them to judge another human that doesn't share that faith? You need to find a fenced in compound in the mountains somewhere to live out the rest of your life.


And if we're going to go there, it's not you sharing your opinion on gay marriage. It's what you say your religion tells you to believe about it. Therefore, you're calling it your opinion. Again, sad.

Sorry, I get really angry when people say "I have the bible on my side" type of comments. I could take this arguement to a whole new level, but this isn't the thread or place to do so.
Rant over.
 

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Then I take it you adhere to these writings just as strongly as the bits you use to condemn homosexuality...

* DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
* DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
* MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
* LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
* MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
* DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
 

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And gee, I wonder who literally just said this?

“They say they exist. If someone is gay, who searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge?” he added. "The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says they should not be marginalized because of this (orientation) but that they must be integrated into society."


Hydro... you need to get out more.




Pope: 'Who am I to judge' gay people? - World News
 

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Wants to be TheFlipperGray
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Wow, now I am shoving my religion down peoples throats.
Yes.

You shoved your religion down my throat as soon as you said that I should follow a certain law because YOUR GOD said it is just.

PS: I don't need a book to tell me what is wrong and right, how to live my life, and how to be a good person. I hope no person is actually that incapable of thinking on their own that they need to run to a book to figure out how to handle every situation. But sadly here we are.
 

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Ok, well lets say the big bang theory or whatever view you hold on creation has a male and female reproducing. (not sure why you opened with this, because you use it nowhere in the text you follow it up with)

Without religion, there is no moral compass. And yes of course we need direction to tell us what is right and wrong, otherwise there would not be any action that is labeled right or wrong because there is no point of reference. (again, this is a total BS argument. I don't need your invisible man in the sky to tell me what is morally wrong. I'm quite capable of discerning for myself what is right, and what is wrong. to pull this thread back in the proper direction, tell me what allowing gays, who are only interested in having another gay person as a partner, does to you personally. they aren't interested in you. the argument being presented in this thread is about allowing them the same legal standing in a relationship, so they can take care of their partners in the same way you take care of your spouse - with the same benefits you feel you are entitled to.)

I am sorry to inform you that the founding fathers were in fact religious, please read any founding documents and tell me how many times the word God appears. (here's a link to the full text of the Constitution of the US. the founding fathers insisted on a full separation of church and state, so please tell me how many times the word "God" or "god" appears in it. I'll give you a hint - you don't need any fingers to count the number of instantiations. there's your founding document. here's a link to the Declaration of Independence - the word, "Creator" and the word "God" appear exactly once each, but not in the way you suggest. lastly, here's a link to the original Bill of Rights - no mention of church or God there, either. nice try, thanks for playing.)


However misguided you feel my sense of truth is, I have the bible on my side that has over 40 books was written over a period of 400 years by 66 different authors that all tell the same story. ( do you think that the bible was originally intended on being the book that you think you know? or was it a congolmeration, a merging, of many supposed sacred texts? how many times has it been re-written and edited? do you think the King James version that you revere is an accurate representation of what was the original text, translated from Hebrew and Greek, or is it possible that the group of religious scholars assembled by King James had some sort of marching orders from his adminisstration? how accurate was the translation? how was it biased? this has been examined and researched many times, but yet you hold it in such awe. but you keep thumpin' that book if it makes you feel good. I'll stick by science, because it explains things, rather than mystifiying the unknown.)

Again thats like saying one does not need a compass to know where North, South,East, West is. Without the compass there is no direction.
(where does the sun rise and set? I can figure it out, just like you could. I and many others like me don't need your bible as a compass as to how to be a good person. I'll also go so far as to say most irreligious people I know are far better, more moral humans than the lot of bible thumpers - more on this below)

If you are going to tell me an analogy does not work you need to throw me a bone as to why. I think that is a good one. ( since you can't see the fallacy of it, any argument contrary would be lost on you) [/QUOTE]

when a major catastrophy strikes some population center anywhere in the US, or even some place else in the world, what is your response? do you send prayers, or do you send something useful (by useful, I mean clothing, food, money - the invisible man in the sky doesn't seem to be able to answer those prayers)? do you donate time to help those in need? do you truly do things that will seriously help others? do you live your life in a "Christ-like fashion" (think about the meaning of that phrase before you answer, because an immediate response of "yes!" usually means the person considering it hasn't thought it out) or are you a wanna-be christian, someone who goes to church on Sunday and uses the sermon to absolve yourself of your sins of the past week so you can feel good about your self for a few days? most self-proclaimed Christians aren't Christian at all. to delve further is way beyond the scope of this thread - so if you want to discuss it, start a new thread.

here's a hint or two... being Christian means having senses of empathy and fairness (what happened to your moral compass? oh, that's right, your bible and moral compass told you people shouldn't be gay, so empathy and fairness no longer count towards them). regardless about how you feel as a heterosexual and as a Christian regarding gay people, your religion compels you to be empathetic and show a sense of fairness, as well as not judging them for their sins - because judging them in this matter is NOT YOUR PLACE, according to your religion - only your god has that priviledge. denying homosexual people the legal right to care for, insure, and to be at the hospital bedside of an ill/dying partner, preventing them from having the same legal rights in those regards that you have shows me that you have neither empathy nor a sense of fairness - how very Christ-like of you. go back to your fundie church and keep denying what's happening around you.
 

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I understand you points, but let me ask you something.

If when you die and you find out you were completely wrong, will you accept whatever god is right? Say for instance jews, or muslims or Hindus or any other group is actually right, will you bow down and accept it? Or better yet, what if scientology or evolution is right, and there's just nothing.
If I die, and find out I am wrong, than what??, I tried to live as good of life as I could. I followed the teachings of a man that said to not to kill, I was faithful to my wife, I helped care for the poor and needy, heck, I was even part of a ministry on skid row. What about that life seems bad, or evil?? " And I would be labeled a fool by some. I am o.k. with that because if I am wrong, it does not have eternal consequences attached to it. BUT, if I am right, than from what the bible tells us, all that don't believe are doomed to hell for eternity. There is no consequence if I am wrong, but there are horrible consequences if I am right.

Look, I get it. The homosexual community just want's to be able to have a partner in life, to be able to love, and have a companion to be loved by, as I do, with my wife. How does it hurt anybody if they want to marry? I do not know, because I don't have all the answers, but I know who does, The creator of this great universe, our creator. Do you think He might know something we don't?? Do you think He might see the effects of this down the road that we don't have knowledge of yet???? Otherwise, why would a God that says He loves us say that homosexuality is wrong. Again, this goes back to my earlier statement, the bible, as well as God does not give you the option to pick and choose in the Bible what you want to believe because it is that polarizing. It makes you have decision either way.
 

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Yes.

You shoved your religion down my throat as soon as you said that I should follow a certain law because YOUR GOD said it is just.

PS: I don't need a book to tell me what is wrong and right, how to live my life, and how to be a good person. I hope no person is actually that incapable of thinking on their own that they need to run to a book to figure out how to handle every situation. But sadly here we are.
Please read the first post where I prefaced it by saying "I believe" You are free to have your views just as I am. Did I come on here and start telling you that you are shoving your beliefs down my throat because I am supposed to allow something to take place I don't agree with?? I did not. This is an open forum for discussion, and that is what I am doing.
 

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Ok, well lets say the big bang theory or whatever view you hold on creation has a male and female reproducing. (not sure why you opened with this, because you use it nowhere in the text you follow it up with)

Without religion, there is no moral compass. And yes of course we need direction to tell us what is right and wrong, otherwise there would not be any action that is labeled right or wrong because there is no point of reference. (again, this is a total BS argument. I don't need your invisible man in the sky to tell me what is morally wrong. I'm quite capable of discerning for myself what is right, and what is wrong. to pull this thread back in the proper direction, tell me what allowing gays, who are only interested in having another gay person as a partner, does to you personally. they aren't interested in you. the argument being presented in this thread is about allowing them the same legal standing in a relationship, so they can take care of their partners in the same way you take care of your spouse - with the same benefits you feel you are entitled to.)

I am sorry to inform you that the founding fathers were in fact religious, please read any founding documents and tell me how many times the word God appears. (here's a link to the full text of the Constitution of the US. the founding fathers insisted on a full separation of church and state, so please tell me how many times the word "God" or "god" appears in it. I'll give you a hint - you don't need any fingers to count the number of instantiations. there's your founding document. here's a link to the Declaration of Independence - the word, "Creator" and the word "God" appear exactly once each, but not in the way you suggest. lastly, here's a link to the original Bill of Rights - no mention of church or God there, either. nice try, thanks for playing.)


However misguided you feel my sense of truth is, I have the bible on my side that has over 40 books was written over a period of 400 years by 66 different authors that all tell the same story. ( do you think that the bible was originally intended on being the book that you think you know? or was it a congolmeration, a merging, of many supposed sacred texts? how many times has it been re-written and edited? do you think the King James version that you revere is an accurate representation of what was the original text, translated from Hebrew and Greek, or is it possible that the group of religious scholars assembled by King James had some sort of marching orders from his adminisstration? how accurate was the translation? how was it biased? this has been examined and researched many times, but yet you hold it in such awe. but you keep thumpin' that book if it makes you feel good. I'll stick by science, because it explains things, rather than mystifiying the unknown.)

Again thats like saying one does not need a compass to know where North, South,East, West is. Without the compass there is no direction.
(where does the sun rise and set? I can figure it out, just like you could. I and many others like me don't need your bible as a compass as to how to be a good person. I'll also go so far as to say most irreligious people I know are far better, more moral humans than the lot of bible thumpers - more on this below)

If you are going to tell me an analogy does not work you need to throw me a bone as to why. I think that is a good one. ( since you can't see the fallacy of it, any argument contrary would be lost on you) [/QUOTE]

when a major catastrophy strikes some population center anywhere in the US, or even some place else in the world, what is your response? do you send prayers, or do you send something useful (by useful, I mean clothing, food, money - the invisible man in the sky doesn't seem to be able to answer those prayers)? do you donate time to help those in need? do you truly do things that will seriously help others? do you live your life in a "Christ-like fashion" (think about the meaning of that phrase before you answer, because an immediate response of "yes!" usually means the person considering it hasn't thought it out) or are you a wanna-be christian, someone who goes to church on Sunday and uses the sermon to absolve yourself of your sins of the past week so you can feel good about your self for a few days? most self-proclaimed Christians aren't Christian at all. to delve further is way beyond the scope of this thread - so if you want to discuss it, start a new thread.

here's a hint or two... being Christian means having senses of empathy and fairness (what happened to your moral compass? oh, that's right, your bible and moral compass told you people shouldn't be gay, so empathy and fairness no longer count towards them). regardless about how you feel as a heterosexual and as a Christian regarding gay people, your religion compels you to be empathetic and show a sense of fairness, as well as not judging them for their sins - because judging them in this matter is NOT YOUR PLACE, according to your religion - only your god has that priviledge. denying homosexual people the legal right to care for, insure, and to be at the hospital bedside of an ill/dying partner, preventing them from having the same legal rights in those regards that you have shows me that you have neither empathy nor a sense of fairness - how very Christ-like of you. go back to your fundie church and keep denying what's happening around you.
Your original statement was the founding fathers were not religious. I believe you called it a fallacy. Your own post proves otherwise. Creator/God= religious
 

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Wants to be TheFlipperGray
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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
I hope that looks familiar. The founding fathers believed in a creator as well as equality.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the "unless you're gay" clause there..

Perhaps I missed something else the religious founding fathers mentioned against the gay community?
 

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Your original statement was the founding fathers were not religious. I believe you called it a fallacy. Your own post proves otherwise. Creator/God= religious
that's right, I did. my own post doesn't refute it. one document - ONE - refers to a supreme being, and only twice. it doesn't go on and on about "God this" or "God that." by the way - nice cherry-picking of the one thing that the topic of this thread is not about.

the topic of how religious the founding fathers were has been beat to death in the last 20 years. the "Moral Majority" and the Christian fundamentalists in this country have sought to re-write history to something that's more favorable to their point of view.
see the following link, and take the time to consider the arguments proposed therein:

Was America Founded As A Christian Nation? - Forbes

lastly, how about bringing this back on topic? if you want to go on about the religious nature of the founders of this country, start a new thread.
 

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If I die, and find out I am wrong, than what??, I tried to live as good of life as I could. I followed the teachings of a man that said to not to kill, I was faithful to my wife, I helped care for the poor and needy, heck, I was even part of a ministry on skid row. What about that life seems bad, or evil?? " And I would be labeled a fool by some. I am o.k. with that because if I am wrong, it does not have eternal consequences attached to it. BUT, if I am right, than from what the bible tells us, all that don't believe are doomed to hell for eternity. There is no consequence if I am wrong, but there are horrible consequences if I am right.

Look, I get it. The homosexual community just want's to be able to have a partner in life, to be able to love, and have a companion to be loved by, as I do, with my wife. How does it hurt anybody if they want to marry? I do not know, because I don't have all the answers, but I know who does, The creator of this great universe, our creator. Do you think He might know something we don't?? Do you think He might see the effects of this down the road that we don't have knowledge of yet???? Otherwise, why would a God that says He loves us say that homosexuality is wrong. Again, this goes back to my earlier statement, the bible, as well as God does not give you the option to pick and choose in the Bible what you want to believe because it is that polarizing. It makes you have decision either way.
Did He tell you that homosexuality was wrong? And that all the other things that used to be what He told us were no longer wrong? (reference post #168) Or did a flawed, egoistic human tell you that it was wrong? We're talking about the interpretation of men: men who believe honestly and purely in their Good Book. The problem, to me, is that what one man interprets as "God says NO GAYS!", another may interpret differently. But what about Leviticus, you may ask? What about it? The same Leviticus that references one man laying with another similarly forbids tattoos. Why does one apply, but not the other? Because HUMANS are interpreting that Good Book, and deciding what is an offense against God and what isn't. It all should come back to "Who is it hurting?" Is the world made into something less because two people who love each other have committed to their relationship formally? With almost 7 Billion people riding this planet together, maybe not procreating isn't so bad. That whole "Be fruitful and multiply" thing seems kind of iffy in retrospect!
 

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Years ago, both slave holders and abolitionists used bible quotes to "prove" their argument. The fact that the Bible could be used to both promote and denounce slavery at the same time shows that anyone can use excerpts from the Bible to defend pretty much any position they want.
 

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Slightly off topic, but what do you do with a bible after a dog has chewed it? Also, the dog is not gay, just enjoys a little leg now and then.
 
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