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Indicate your level of interest in an E-mail Dyno

  • YES! This is great stuff. I'd definitely use it often.

    Votes: 13 37.1%
  • Pretty cool, I might use it once in awhile

    Votes: 17 48.6%
  • I like the CAPS comparison better

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • I like a "real" dyno better

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Rusty needs to quit breathing gasoline fumes

    Votes: 3 8.6%

  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .
1 - 20 of 37 Posts

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PassatWorld Staff
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Yeah, that's right, e-mail dyno. ONE8T gave me the idea:

ONE8T said:
Check out this link under the heading 1.8T Turbo CAPS Data http://plaza.ufl.edu/paradigm/caps/

Rusty is checking with the other Mods to see if a similar file for the Passat B5's can be housed on CB5/PW. It would take some of the "butt" out of the estimates and eliminate differences between dynos. Also would allow for real world airflow to intake and IC's. It might not tell who has the most peak hp/torque, but it would show what setup has the most go! Basically the road equivalent of "area under the curve" on a dyno. Variables would be weight, tip/manual (very small) and how close you stick to the test instructions in terms of road grade, etc. Overall should be pretty comparable...
I have a dynoplot spreadsheet that I have been using and perfecting for over a year. It's based on Andy's (from Ross-Tech) dynoplot4.xls. This is a pretty darn accurate spreadsheet that calculates a wheel HP and TQ plot by recording the speed of the car vs. time. Using the known weight of the car, one can calculate the change in kinetic energy over time, which is - guess what? - POWER. This is exactly how a Dynojet works - the weight of the drum is known, and it measures how fast the drum is accelerated.

But there are a couple of practical problems with it. It works by logging data as you accelerate in one given gear from start (1500-2000 rpm) to redline, then quickly shifting to Neutral and coasting back to your start speed, on a level, straight road. This makes it highly impractical to get a good run in 3rd gear, and virtually impossible to get a run in 4th gear unless you have access to an airfield, because the coastdown takes a long time and a lot of road.

Coasting back to start speed is critical to the accuracy of the data - it takes into account the HP affect of aerodynamic and friction drag. But with some coefficient-of-drag-based equations, modified by the results of a few real coastdowns, I have eliminated the coastdown from Andy's spreadsheet. That's right - no coastdown run. So in as litttle as a quarter-to-half a mile, I can hop out and get a dyno run very easily in 3rd gear, simply accelerating from 1500-redline (approx 20-80 mph). A lot easier to find the right piece of road. Run management is simplified, and the top speed is not too excessive for an empty backroad.

In addition, I've added SAE correction factors. So all I do is check the meteorological data for the airport nearest me for that date and time-of-day, and PRESTO! - I have something that is dead consistent from run to run. No guesswork and no ham-fisted dyno operators. And all it costs me is the gasoline (and maybe a reasonable ticket if I ever get caught).

In further addition, I've added other fields to the plot so that you can see timing, MAF, fuel injector duty cycle, IAT, etc. right there on the darn graph - an incredibly valuable tuning tool. Here's a recent example:



I've been yacking about this for awhile, but only a couple of people here have "bit" on it, and I've never even gotten feedback from them. If you are unfamiliar with the spreadsheet, it can be a bit confusing transferring the data from VAG-COM log files to the dynoplot. But I've been doing it for so long that I can almost do it with my eyes closed. And I've also been doing it long enough to have confidence in doing just one run - the differences in runs two and three never amount to anything significant. (I usually do two or three anyway, just in case.)

So anyway here's the point of this long-assed post: for some insane reason, I would be willing to run the spreadsheet for you if you email me the VAG-COM data.

I can see that this could turn out to be a lot of work for me, and I might get behind, and I wouldn't be able to guarantee turnaround time - but it would be free, consistent, truly comparable data. (As I type, I'm sitting here asking myself WTF am I getting me into - I dunno, maybe some kind of crazy "giving back to ClubB5" thing?)

I can see me sending you back the completed spreadsheet for your tuning purposes, and for your best runs I can see a thread or some kind of storage here on CB5. Sorted by HP, of course!

Here is what you would need to do to pull this off:

1) Have your car weighed once at truck scales or something, this should cost about $20. An accurate weight of the car in driveable condition, with a known fuel quantity, known driver weight, known items in the trunk, etc. The weight you send me for each run would have to be adjusted by changed fuel quantity (6 lbs/gallon), extra passengers, trunk items changed, etc.

2) A willingness to log the correct data and rename the data files to a standard format so I can keep everything organized.

3) A willingness to keep your own data, I can't be responsible for storing everything and backing it up.

4) A willingness to be patient - My family gets the best of me, everything else is leftovers.

As soon as I figure out how to add a poll, I'll tack one onto this thread. Meanwhile, let me know if you are interested, or if you'd rather just use the CAPS data that 1.8T has pointed us to.
 

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Founder of the STFA
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8,667 Posts
TTT. Don't be scared by Rusty's long post! This is good stuff.

All the power hungry modders on here and only 4 votes so far! I'll be getting an updated file to Rusty as soon as the weather clears.
 

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PassatWorld Staff
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12,267 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Bump. Guys, I didn't have the foresight to record voting details in the poll, and once the poll is started, you can't add that feature. So I know how many are interested, but not who. So if you vote positive, give this thread a bump, thanks.
 

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"Pretty cool, I might use it once in awhile" for me, i don't have a VAG-COM so even though i think it's cool, i won't have the ability to make use of it very often if at all.

a.s.
 

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Fore!
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1,564 Posts
I'm interested, although I may go out to a dynojet I just found near my home. It's damn hard to find a straight empty flat piece of road here in SW CT. But on the plus side I do have a vag com.
 

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I just got back from a dynojet fyno session. I would like to participate. SO I hook my vagcom up and log as much info as I can, then send you the file and you'll work it out on a graph?
 

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PassatWorld Staff
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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
doogie_h said:
I just got back from a dynojet fyno session. I would like to participate. SO I hook my vagcom up and log as much info as I can, then send you the file and you'll work it out on a graph?
Yup. Sort of. There's specific data that you need to log for specific needs.

Basic Items:

1) Actual weight of car. Preferred format is three numbers: Car weight w/empty tank and no driver, gasoline quantity, driver weight. (When you weigh your car you can subtract 6 lbs per gallon for the weight of the gas.) Subsequent runs, you should only have to provide gasoline qty, unless you have added 20 lbs of groceries to the trunk or something.
2) Location and/or name of nearest airport (for meteorological data)
3) Long (1/2 to 1 mile) stretch of flat, straight road w/o traffic or cops. Use same stretch of road every time.
4) A list of (engine) mods would be a cool thing to keep with each run.

Dyno Run Procedure:

1) Have VAG-COM hooked up and ready to log
2) Steady cruise at or below 2000 rpm in 3rd gear
3) Start logging
4) Punch accelerator to WOT. (If tip, press throttle to KickDown, but do not activate. I have confirmed measurements that show the KD point is WOT, and you get no additional throttle opening past the KD point.)
5) Keep accelerating to redline
6) Release Throttle
7) Stop logging

What Blocks to Log:

1) Dyno-only = 005
2) Dyno plus basic tuning = 005, 002, 011
3) Advanced tuning = 088 (or 099), 020, 031
4) More Advanced Tuning = any other block you want to know, for example Boost, along with RPM.
5) With an AEB, if you want boost you'll have to tabulate it manually by looking at boost gauge vs. tach

For best tuning data, I recommend two runs, one (2) and one (3), plus a simple notation (don't log it) of your fuel trims block 032.

On the DBW cars, since their block 031 (o2 voltage) reads bass-ackwrds from DBC cars, I'll have to work on that a bit. Someone will have to send me some data.

The info I use is listed below. All blocks listed are for an AEB engine. If they are different on DBW and/or V6, someone needs to tell me where.

005: RPM, speed
002: RPM, Fuel Injector Time, MAF
011: RPM, Intake Air Temp, Ignition Timing
020: Individual Cylinder Knock Retard (V6 different here for sure!)
031: O2 sensor voltage (for A/F estimate)
088 or 099: RPM, O2 sensor control (STFT, open-loop vs. closed loop).

:thumbup:
 

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PassatWorld Staff
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Discussion Starter #12
Bump. Poll's about to close. Everybody get excited. :rolleye: This could answer some of these questions:
Has anyone ever raced APR VS GIAC? Does anyone have any numbers on 0-60 and 1/4 mile?
simple question... APR vs giac
giac all the way! (although the actual power this thing is putting out may be up in the air given my recent enlightenment into the efficiency of the turbo etc.)
I've driven both. APR is smoother and more linear while GIAC is a little more "wild."
 

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Rusty this is good stuff. I can log all of the Dallas/Fort Worth guys who show up for our April GTG. :)
 

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PassatWorld Staff
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Discussion Starter #16
One last bump. Here's my current idea for how best to organize the data and questions generated by this "project" -

A forum "area" at the level of "The Marketplace", "Community Forums", "ClubB5", etc, that's labeled

"Email Dyno and Tuning"

In it, there would be two forums:

Dyno Forum
Tuning Forum


The Dyno Forum would be
1) for posting dynos only. It would be like the Info Forum, where only moderators can post to it.
2) There would be one thread for every screen name, like in the Member Directories. Multiple dynos allowed (and encouraged) per thread.
3) Format of the small dyno chart illustrated in my "E-mail dyno" post, with a list of mods off to the side.
4) First thread theory, second procedure, third what to log, maybe 4th FAQ, all stuck so they stay up top. Maybe a 5th stuck thread with a sorted (by HP) list of links to all the threads in the forum.
5) For the sake of consistency and to aide in tuning and diagnosing tuning problems, I would insist that only VAG-COM dynos be allowed in this forum. Any other dyno charts would be meaningless, unless accompanied by a VAG-COM dyno. This is open to discussion, but someone would have to give me a really strong argument to change my mind.

The Tuning Forum would be for
1) those nutty arcane tuning questions like "how much knock retard is allowable" and "what should my O2 sensor voltage be"
2) a discussion forum for tuning suggestions based on the dyno data in the dyno forum
3) Q&A&HowTo for the Dyno Forum

After having D.Passat00 lose a cylinder, and doogie_h have trouble tuning his BT kit, I feel a need for this kind of data available in one stop. It needs to be simple so that it's easy to manage. The above seems simple enough. Any Comments?
 

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^^ i like this idea. and even tho all this is above my technical abilities, it will allow me to learn and get to know my car better. i would love to try this out. Rusty always gets me thinking about logging all these things....man i need to run and get a vag-com!
 

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Rusty, I'll log a bunch of data this weekend.

Email it to rusty nospacehere ragan at usa dot net?
 

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I just ordered a laptop, and I've always wondered what my V6 torque curve looks like, so maybe a VAG-COM is in my future. Just started reading about it. Is the serial connection significantly better?
 
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