[avraell]

edit: new questions in last post, just trying to keep it all in one thread
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I used Liquid Wrench on all the bolts on Thursday evening. Started working on the car yesterday. All the nuts came off fine. I actually did the tie rod on the left side. However, the circled part on the left isn't coming out. I am more concerned about the red ellipse-d bolt on both sides though. Nuts came off easy, but the bolts themselves will not budge. I have been spraying with LW every two hours or so. I have also taken the hammer pretty heavily to the left side, with the only results of messing up the end of the bolt.

My question is this - can the penetrating oil take over two days to work or do I need to give up and move on to other methods? If so, what methods? Does it help to jack up the rotor or should I leave it hanging? Thanks in advance as usual.

Edit: Oh, and the bolt in the red ellipse doesn't need to be screwed out, it just comes out, right?

Here is a pic of my actual suspension to show how rusted it was, this is the left side which now has a new tie-rod:

 

[GSO_Passater]

I used Liquid Wrench on all the bolts on Thursday evening. Started working on the car yesterday. All the nuts came off fine. I actually did the tie rod on the left side. However, the circled part on the left isn't coming out. I am more concerned about the red ellipse-d bolt on both sides though. Nuts came off easy, but the bolts themselves will not budge. I have been spraying with LW every two hours or so. I have also taken the hammer pretty heavily to the left side, with the only results of messing up the end of the bolt.

My question is this - can the penetrating oil take over two days to work or do I need to give up and move on to other methods? If so, what methods? Does it help to jack up the rotor or should I leave it hanging? Thanks in advance as usual.

Edit: Oh, and the bolt in the red ellipse doesn't need to be screwed out, it just comes out, right?

Yes, it comes right out.

Keep soaking it every couple of hours with penetrating oil. It does not look nearly wet enough now. The brand of choice here is PBBlaster as it seems to penetrate faster.

If you are going to replace the CA's and TRE anyway, a torch can be used on the knuckle to expand the metal It takes a while to get hot enough, but can be done. You can search (pinch bolt removal in the Info Base) to find a DIY on how to break off the bolt head (not the nut) and use a series of nuts/washers/pipe to pull the bolt.

Cover all of the new parts with anti-seize.

Also, make sure you have replacement bolts as you will need them.

 

[GSO_Passater]

The pinch bolt removal link.

http://www.passatworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233225

 

[avraell]

Thank you very much, cutting the head and using nuts to pull the bolt hasn't crossed my mind at all - the random things people think of! The pic is old btw (few weeks before I started), but I will keep soaking and resort to heat at some point tomorrow. Thanks again man.

 

[Bullit62]

I had on slightly stuck last weekend (I don't have anywhere near the corrosion problems most do) and I used a centerpunch on the end of the bolt with a ball-peen hammer. It popped loose immediately...

 

[avraell]

Does the center punch help direct the force somehow over just slamming it with a hammer. I know it's a dumbass question, but I am pretty clueless about all of this. I will try it though, thanks.

 

[uu8]

Does the center punch help direct the force somehow over just slamming it with a hammer. I know it's a dumbass question, but I am pretty clueless about all of this. I will try it though, thanks.

It depends on whether or not you will reuse the old bolt (please don't) or not. The threads will will be ruined if you hit it hard enough with a hammer.


P.S. - x infinity on the PB Blaster. Great stuff.

 

[therealjt]

deffinately use the method linked with the cutting the bolt. One thing i learned is do not try and bang on it at all if doing this method. It will bugger up the end of the bolt and in my case it broke the other side of the bolt when it hung up so i had to drill mine.

good luck

 

[avraell]

6 days of constant penetrating fluid, hammering, and heat. Progress? None.

I am going to drill the bolt, I have never drilled a bolt before. Anything I should be aware of? Any tips on keeping it straight? Any chance of me making things worse somehow other than drilling the steering knuckle?

 

[lawless]

I feel your pain on this having just gone through it 3 weeks ago. I have access to a dizzying array of tools and tried most everything. Both bolts broke on mine. One side I was able to add washers under the nut and tighten the nuts down to try and pull the bolt out. My nut was on the side towards the shock so I was able to have someone hammer on it while I turned the nut and pulled the broken bolt out about a third of the way then hammered it out the rest of the way with a hardened punch. I heated it with a torch to the point it melted both upper link boots. Obviously, I replaced those, but the heat definitely helped. Also, try and use a punch to knock the upper joints up a little bit, they may be binding on the bolt keeping it from moving freely. Once I got 1 bolt past the first joint it came out much easier.

The other bolt was even more of a pain. I broke off the head, then broke off the threads trying the washer trick. I ended up using a 4X rivet gun (similar concept to an air hammer) to knock that bolt out.

There's nothing easy about this if the bolt breaks. Just make sure to put LOTS of anti-seize on the new bolts before you put them in to make life much easier if you have to do this again.

While you have these bolts out take a good look at your shocks, upper links and CV axles. All those parts require removing this damn bolt so you might as well replace them now if they look suspect to save yourself this hassle again.

 

[StuartQF]

If you do end up having to drill the bolt out, be sure to have some spare bits on hand, as well as some cutting fluid to keep the bits from overheating and dulling.

 

[gmiani]

I hate to say it...but its just not worth the time...those damn things. I haven't paid someone else to work on my car in over 12 years...but the passenger side stopped me in my tracks. After a week of every trick in the book, I took it over to Edge Tuning in Haverstraw, NY...50 bucks and 15 minutes with the VW extraction tool...and my saga was over.

Be careful pushing up on the control arms...the nipple (or whatever you want to call it) that connects with the knuckle has a groove cut out so that the bolt holds them in place.

Lessons learned.
1) From torching the driver side...new control arms are more expensive than the $50 i spent to have that thing removed.
2) When hammering a bolt...its best to put the nut back on flush with the end...that way you don't mushroom it or fuck up the threads...also helps from bending it.
3) 6 years of NY salted winters made even the "pinch bolt removal made easy" fail.
4) Drilling out a bolt takes many sharp drill bits and makes them dull.
5) Anti-sieze is your friend.

 

[AdrenalinPlease]

I didn't replace my UC's yet and am dreading it, just removing that upper bolt on the TRE's was a pain in the ass.
DO I have to remove the pinch bolts for the struts and springs?

 

[Tom Parish]

DO I have to remove the pinch bolts for the struts and springs?

Yes you do.

 

[silverstoner]

I wonder if it is the grooves in the pins that slide into the knuckle that causes the bolt to seize. Maybe some tapping on top of the upper control arms so that the pins seat completely down would release pressure on the bolt from the pins, and it would be easier to take out.

 

[avraell]

Thanks guys, I will be trying all of this from now until it gets dark (in about 4 hours).

2) When hammering a bolt...its best to put the nut back on flush with the end...that way you don't mushroom it or fuck up the threads...also helps from bending it.

I did that too, was wondering if treads still get messed up and I won't be able to take the nut off, but then I realized that I would be cutting the bolt at some point anyway

I didn't replace my UC's yet and am dreading it, just removing that upper bolt on the TRE's was a pain in the ass.

I already did my TREs, the bolts on one side came out easy, took three days of penetrating fluid on the other side. From my experience so far, pinch is much, much, muchhhh worse.z

I hate to say it...but its just not worth the time...those damn things. I haven't paid someone else to work on my car in over 12 years...but the passenger side stopped me in my tracks. After a week of every trick in the book, I took it over to Edge Tuning in Haverstraw, NY...50 bucks and 15 minutes with the VW extraction tool...and my saga was over.

I would, if I knew someone to do it for $50 or triple that, problem is, all dealers here are complete d**ks, and I don't know any mechanics that I trust with anything. Imo it's not lazy or anything like that, just rational at this point.

 

[Doobie]

Originally Posted by AdrenalinPlease
DO I have to remove the pinch bolts for the struts and springs?

Yes you do.

No you dont............unless you are one of the few unlucky ones who have aircon lines over your top bolts....

Here is how to do the fronts without removing the pinchbolts....
So the big day today.....had a nice lay in and got to work...about 11.30 ....yawn... I really didnt believe i had to take the whole front end apart just to change the struts especially changing those pesky pinchbolts or undoing the driveshaft bolt and pulling the hub off the driveshaft and taking the whole top mount off as i had read or been told....ffs its just two nuts and a bolt holding it on....So after a bit of research i found a way of doing it without doing all that but even they said to remove the undertray and disconnect the anti roll bar which also seemed like far too much hard work...I am basically a lazy guy n always look for the easiest way of doing things...
The first thing i did was to measure the height from the top of the wheel to the wheelarch this was 170mm on 3 corners and 150 on the right hand rear so i am expecting a problem there... we will see.
So first i checked out the top.....removed the 2 grommets each side to reveal the top strut nuts they are the rusty ones...

....nothing too hard here so i used a13mm socket with a couple of short wobble extensions and loosened the two nuts but didnt take them off...i jacked up the car put it on axle stands and took the wheels off then i removed the bottom bolt easy enough so far...I then put a piece of card over the CV gaiter to protect it like this..

and with a large screwdriver eased the bottom of the strut over the driveshaft.....holding the bottom of the strut up with my foot i removed the top nuts using a small amount of grease in the socket so the nut came out with the socket....then i removed the strut....the first side took about an hour as i was learning and taking my time but i did the second one in about 15 minutes.......Simples....Struts removed and the only tools you need to do the job..

The hammer and punch is to remove the lower bolt as in their wisdom VW put it in the wrong way and it catches on the lower arm...I then took the struts apart with my trusty coil clamps and built up the coilovers then fitted them to the car

i slotted the tops into the holes and loosely did up the tops fitted the bottom bolt and then jacked the hub up to push the bolts through the holes then tightened all the bolts up...

Hope this helps...

 

[avraell]

Alright, progress and new questions. On the passenger's side, I ended up cutting off all the rubber and plastic from the upper control arms and heating the pinch bolt for 15 minutes straight (Was trying to save the control arms before by stopping when rubber showed signs of melting - guessing that wasn't nearly hot enough). Then penetrating fluid in 20 mins and next morning it came out. Same didn't work for driver's side.

On to the questions:
(Btw, I am using http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/b5/control-arm-DIY.htm primarily, though I ran through both Benley and Haynes)

1. If I am understanding correctly, I lower the subframe by taking out the 13 mm bolts completely and then lowering the subframe by partially screwing out the 18 mm and letting frame hang on it (to get space for lower control arm bolts), then forcing it back up by screwing in the bolt. Is this really safe? (I really am a noob...still, sorry). Also, author says support subframe/engine? I assume I can ignore supporting engine/transmission here and put something under the subframe in case it falls for safety, or do I LITERALLY need to support the engine?

2. I gave up on switching the lower arms for a bit due to subframe concerns and tightened the sway bar link bolts. Is it acceptable (I know it's not recommended) to take sway bar link off and re-use them?

3. In the manual, there is a clear distance between the upper control arms and the thing that mounts to the body to get the "natural" angle right when tightening to torque, is there anything like this for the lowers?

Thanks for all the help and sorry about all the dumbass questions as usual.

 

[JayTheSnork]

Yes you do.

I didn't replace my UC's yet and am dreading it, just removing that upper bolt on the TRE's was a pain in the ass.
DO I have to remove the pinch bolts for the struts and springs?

that's funny - we've done multiple suspensions at garage days in CT, and we never do.

 

[Petra Passat]

...1. If I am understanding correctly, I lower the subframe by taking out the 13 mm bolts completely and then lowering the subframe by partially screwing out the 18 mm and letting frame hang on it (to get space for lower control arm bolts), then forcing it back up by screwing in the bolt. Is this really safe? (I really am a noob...still, sorry). Also, author says support subframe/engine? I assume I can ignore supporting engine/transmission here and put something under the subframe in case it falls for safety, or do I LITERALLY need to support the engine?
...
3. In the manual, there is a clear distance between the upper control arms and the thing that mounts to the body to get the "natural" angle right when tightening to torque, is there anything like this for the lowers?

An alternative to lowering the subframe is to pull the bolt out as far as you can, cut it off with a dremel tool/cut off wheel, then pull the rest out. When you go to put the new bolt in through the new control arm, fiddle it in on the opposite side through the hole in the frame. You have to feed the bolt into the frame, then hold it between two fingers to feed it back through the control arm - it was frustrating with my big fingers, but worked ok in the end.

As for torquing the control arms, measure the height between the wheel centre and the fender with the car on the ground, wheels on, full weight down before you start (uh oh, too late, huh...), then when ready to torque, jack the spindle up to this same point and torque the bolts. You may have to leave the control arm bolts loose, button up the wheels and drop it back on the ground to get the right measurement. BE CAREFUL, lifting the spindle with a jack may lift the car off the jack stands, don't go under the car unless you have additional blocking (like the tire under the door sill) to make sure the car can't fall on you while you are reefing on the wrenches.

John

John