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It's ok though. They were merely protecting our right to brandish weapons and kill eachother over nothing. They are stellar examples of Care Bears of Democracy! The cute and cuddly school shooter. Yeah for VIOLENCE! Go NRA GO! Thank goodness we have the right to do THAT! YEAH! :thumbup:
 

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oh great here we go again....
its nice to know people like to defend the bill of rights, except that 2nd ammendment. And almost immediately, all of those who have/use guns are automatically stereotyped into NRA people who have the right to kill and carry AK-47 on their concealed persons.
Gun or no Gun, the person wanted to commit a violent act. IT just so happen the person used a gun. NO gun pulls its own trigger. For every study people are going to cite stating that where there is guns, there is violence, people can find another study that says where there is a population of respectful gun ownership, the major/violent crime rate is down.
It's the "one bad apple" cliche that you are using.
Food for thought, The assualt wepaons bill is supposed to "sunset" this year( i think). The bill which banned this rifle, and that rifle which has done NOTHING to curb violent crime. Don't be suprised if the big texan in the oval office signs it again because of the election year. Watch how pissed the NRA will be then.
Since there is no way you will be able to get all guns banned, why not take a different approach and try to ban bullets?
 

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FourMoBro said:
oh great here we go again....
its nice to know people like to defend the bill of rights, except that 2nd ammendment. And almost immediately, all of those who have/use guns are automatically stereotyped into NRA people who have the right to kill and carry AK-47 on their concealed persons.
Gun or no Gun, the person wanted to commit a violent act. IT just so happen the person used a gun. NO gun pulls its own trigger. For every study people are going to cite stating that where there is guns, there is violence, people can find another study that says where there is a population of respectful gun ownership, the major/violent crime rate is down.
It's the "one bad apple" cliche that you are using.
Food for thought, The assualt wepaons bill is supposed to "sunset" this year( i think). The bill which banned this rifle, and that rifle which has done NOTHING to curb violent crime. Don't be suprised if the big texan in the oval office signs it again because of the election year. Watch how pissed the NRA will be then.
Since there is no way you will be able to get all guns banned, why not take a different approach and try to ban bullets?
Right on! So you are anti-drug screening too! Cool. I won't get into the 2nd ammendment now. I am all for responsible gun ownership. It's allowed under the constitution so that we can rise up against oppression and go hunting.
Is this an example of the responsible? If they had no guns would they not have simply stabbed bludgeoned or punched eachother? Would one of them be dead? Probably not. Maybe though. However our 2nd ammendment liberty is upheld by our state millitias. Yes we do have them. Our various national gaurd posts. They serve the purpose that the 2nd ammendment intended to protect. Nevermind. I won't argue this point. It's just sick that kids do this or even have the ability that's all... that's all I'm saying.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
the 'right to bear arms' was intended for a balance of power between the gov and its citizenry. back 200yrs ago when, you COULD have a real balance if you both were equally armed. the guy in the red (or blue or gray) coat wants to come into your yard, you shoot across his step, he rethinks and maybe retreats. you've just won against the gov.

now flashback (wow..) to the modern era. zoom in to a scene where a private citizen is having a dispute with his gov (local or national, doesn't matter). will ANY amount of 'lawyers guns n' money' work in this situation, if you are that private individual? (answer, for the obvious-impaired among us of course not).

200 yrs ago, we didn't quite trust the concept of government (we had a bad time with the brits and weren't too sure about this new washington character, either). so this natural suspicion of the gov vs. the people was taken into consideration when the constitution was made. AT THE TIME, it made perfect sense.

AT THIS PRESENT TIME, it does not. I'm sorry. you may have the right to shoot furry things in the woods, that's a different issue entirely. but the righ to bear arms 'in case' the gov wants to treat its citizens unfairly is just too laughable, in this present day and age. of COURSE the gov has ultimate power (they own the nukes). OF COURSE they're not sharing the power with anyone else. kinda obvious, huh? today, if there was a new constitution, it would NEVER allow regular old citizens to own anything that could be used to subvert, challenge or change the status quo.

again, if the gov 'wants your ass', they'll get it. no guy in his barn with a shotgun is gonna stop mr. governor (governator? <g>) if he wants in. we have long lost the ability to defend ourselves from our own government. this constituional right has been effectively been taken from us a LONG time ago.
 

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Or maybe, just maybe, our founding fathers were just a little smarter than you and it makes complete sense. But then again, maybe you're right. We should just scrap the Consititution altogether and start over, it's obvious they didn't know what they were doing.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
there's a phrase 'no sacred cows'. meaning, you are free to consider EVERYTHING in a new design - even throwing out some of the old, if it makes sense to do that.

there are good and relevant parts of the constitution. there are not-so-relevant parts, also.

its been patched and patched many times (can any common man or even lawyer make sense of our 'body of laws' at this time?) it need a major re-write. a re-org. it served well for over 200 yrs. but its very very patched and, well, its hard to maintain! ;) ;)

can anyone really say they understand how laws, our tax system, our court system? its way way beyond any single person. probably anyone here. its unmanageable.

its an engineering fact that as a system grows more complex and has more and more 'patches' applied to it, the less stable and reliable it is. eventually, you stop repairing a building and put up a whole new one.

does that idea scare you too much? when engineering theory is applied to things of law, justice and government? ;)

lets talk about voting. and electoral college. old old crap like that that shouldn't apply anymore. in fact, even the notion of 'representatives' don't make sense anymore. its techologically possible to HAVE 'one man, one vote' on any issue you wanted to raise. even near real-time! you don't have to have ONE GUY sit in a seat in washington to represent you. you can cut out MANY of the middlemen and go direct from the people. imagine if the SIGs weren't able to influence public policy? wow! now THAT would be what our founding fathers REALLY WOULD HAVE WANTED!!

getting back to your point - our laws, legal system, policies and procedures WERE a great effort for what it was, when it was, a long long time ago. but today, it needs a 'rev 2.0', at the very least. we've come a long way, we've learned a lot, we're more able to communication and represent ourselves, and even the notion of 'boundaries' (lines drawn around state borders) don't even really make much sense or have a lot of relevance today).
 

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The NRA is obviously responsible for this.. :roll: :roll: :roll: :crazy:

[/brainwashed idiot] Hi everybody!! I just saw botchieball for columbine and learned that the nra supports school masacres! oh its horible. And bush and cheney and the evil conservatives want to murder children and allow old men with alzheimer's disease to use children for target practice!! And also I'm against evil jewish bankers because when you open a checking account they give you an ak47 and encourage you to rob their competetors. [/brainwashed idiot]

The truth hurts
 

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linux-works said:
does that idea scare you too much?
Yes, actually it does. I tend to think that our forefathers gave the whole idea a lot more thought and were a bit wiser than you or I. I agree that our legal and tax systems need an overhaul, particularly in the area of Tort law (these are not necessarily Constitiutional overhauls however). However, has it occured to you that one of the problems we have is that too many people in recent years have tried to f#@k with the Constitution? It's no different than the same-sex marriage issue right now. Whether you agree or disagree with the premise, it is not a Consititutional issue.
 

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F. Monger said:
The NRA is obviously responsible for this.. :roll: :roll: :roll: :crazy:

[/brainwashed idiot] Hi everybody!! I just saw botchieball for columbine and learned that the nra supports school masacres! oh its horible. And bush and cheney and the evil conservatives want to murder children and allow old men with alzheimer's disease to use children for target practice!! And also I'm against evil jewish bankers because when you open a checking account they give you an ak47 and encourage you to rob their competetors. [/brainwashed idiot]

The truth hurts
As much as a bullet fired into your chest by a family member? Idiot? You resort to name calling?

Propose a solution... It's a problem. Propose a solution. I'm the idiot but all you can do is name call. Propose a solution.

It's not guns that kill people, it's people with guns that kill people.
 

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Spirare said:
F. Monger said:
The NRA is obviously responsible for this.. :roll: :roll: :roll: :crazy:

[/brainwashed idiot] Hi everybody!! I just saw botchieball for columbine and learned that the nra supports school masacres! oh its horible. And bush and cheney and the evil conservatives want to murder children and allow old men with alzheimer's disease to use children for target practice!! And also I'm against evil jewish bankers because when you open a checking account they give you an ak47 and encourage you to rob their competetors. [/brainwashed idiot]

The truth hurts
As much as a bullet fired into your chest by a family member? Idiot? You resort to name calling?

Propose a solution... It's a problem. Propose a solution. I'm the idiot but all you can do is name call. Propose a solution.

It's not guns that kill people, it's people with guns that kill people.

I agree we shouldn't name call. It is wrong. But isnt that exactly what you did (in a much more subtle way) when you said "GO NRA GO". As if to say somehow the NRA supported, endorsed, overlooked this kind of thing??????

Cant we all just agree that this kind of thing is horrible and leave it at that.

If it wasnt guns it would be something else. You (I think it was you) made a statement above about if it were knives they probably wouldnt be dead. But that probably isnt true. I could kill you just as easily with a knife as I could a gun. Just from a little closer obviously.

If you really want to cut down on meaningless deaths why not make all forms of liquor illegal?????????? I dont know where to get a stat on deaths by drunk drivers but I am sure it is staggering. But no one will hear of that. God forbid we take away their wonderful beer, wine, whiskey, etc....... I do drink so I am not the pot calling the kettle black. I am just saying put it all into perspective. A drunk driver chose to get drunk then made a impaired decision to get in behind the wheel. Is it now the cars fault.
 

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Spirare said:
F. Monger said:
The NRA is obviously responsible for this.. :roll: :roll: :roll: :crazy:

[/brainwashed idiot] Hi everybody!! I just saw botchieball for columbine and learned that the nra supports school masacres! oh its horible. And bush and cheney and the evil conservatives want to murder children and allow old men with alzheimer's disease to use children for target practice!! And also I'm against evil jewish bankers because when you open a checking account they give you an ak47 and encourage you to rob their competetors. [/brainwashed idiot]

The truth hurts
As much as a bullet fired into your chest by a family member? Idiot? You resort to name calling?

Propose a solution... It's a problem. Propose a solution. I'm the idiot but all you can do is name call. Propose a solution.

It's not guns that kill people, it's people with guns that kill people.
If a weapon was taken from a home where that weapon was not secured with a gun lock or put into a gun safe (to me both should be mandatory) - then I think that the adult responsible for that weapon should also be charged with any murders or injuries associated with that weapon.

I'm not talking about someone breaking into a gun safe or picking the lock of a gun lock - I'm specifically talking about those people that are not responsible enough to lock up their weapons. If you have a weapon, today, right now, in 2004 and you don't keep it locked up - the bottom line is - you are lazy and stupid.
 

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Sounds good to me. How do you feel about fingerprint reading gunlocks or an owner chip embedded 'ring' that turns off the safety?

I will reiterate an earlier point. I support responsible gun ownership/sale. There is damning evidence suggesting that we as a country practice neither.
 

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If it wasnt guns it would be something else. You (I think it was you) made a statement above about if it were knives they probably wouldnt be dead. But that probably isnt true. I could kill you just as easily with a knife as I could a gun. Just from a little closer obviously.
If you came at me with a knife, sharpenned chopstick or garden rake, I could either fight you off (and possibly still die) or just run my ass away. The odds of my out running a rake are better than outrunning a bullet, let alone 30 or so fired in semi auto or whatever.

I'll take my chances with the knives and sharp sporks.
 

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J-RAD said:
linux-works said:
does that idea scare you too much?
Yes, actually it does. I tend to think that our forefathers gave the whole idea a lot more thought and were a bit wiser than you or I. I agree that our legal and tax systems need an overhaul, particularly in the area of Tort law (these are not necessarily Constitiutional overhauls however). However, has it occured to you that one of the problems we have is that too many people in recent years have tried to f#@k with the Constitution? It's no different than the same-sex marriage issue right now. Whether you agree or disagree with the premise, it is not a Consititutional issue.
not to get off-topic to far, but this is my exact stance on the Drug laws. Everything was fine untill we screwed up that this century.

However, it still doesn't explain why we have this problem, and no other country does (to this magnitude).
 

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Todd said:
Spirare said:
F. Monger said:
The NRA is obviously responsible for this.. :roll: :roll: :roll: :crazy:

[/brainwashed idiot] Hi everybody!! I just saw botchieball for columbine and learned that the nra supports school masacres! oh its horible. And bush and cheney and the evil conservatives want to murder children and allow old men with alzheimer's disease to use children for target practice!! And also I'm against evil jewish bankers because when you open a checking account they give you an ak47 and encourage you to rob their competetors. [/brainwashed idiot]

The truth hurts
As much as a bullet fired into your chest by a family member? Idiot? You resort to name calling?

Propose a solution... It's a problem. Propose a solution. I'm the idiot but all you can do is name call. Propose a solution.

It's not guns that kill people, it's people with guns that kill people.

I agree we shouldn't name call. It is wrong. But isnt that exactly what you did (in a much more subtle way) when you said "GO NRA GO". As if to say somehow the NRA supported, endorsed, overlooked this kind of thing??????

Cant we all just agree that this kind of thing is horrible and leave it at that.

If it wasnt guns it would be something else. You (I think it was you) made a statement above about if it were knives they probably wouldnt be dead. But that probably isnt true. I could kill you just as easily with a knife as I could a gun. Just from a little closer obviously.

If you really want to cut down on meaningless deaths why not make all forms of liquor illegal?????????? I dont know where to get a stat on deaths by drunk drivers but I am sure it is staggering. But no one will hear of that. God forbid we take away their wonderful beer, wine, whiskey, etc....... I do drink so I am not the pot calling the kettle black. I am just saying put it all into perspective. A drunk driver chose to get drunk then made a impaired decision to get in behind the wheel. Is it now the cars fault.
Understood about the name calling. Pardon.

Regardless. I'd like to see you try to kill me with a knife. If nothing else I can run faster. I've survived enough ass-kickings to know I'd rather take my chances against that. The other issue is the reality of assault. Stick a knife in someone once and it smacks of fetid bloody reality. Shoot someone from a distance and it's just a video game. Not to say either is easy but it's MUCH easier to kill with a gun. If it isn't, hunt with a knife.

I am not going to pick and chose which evil to fight or be distracted from one to fight another. Alcoholism is on my list already and gun control has been longer than the last year since I saw Moore's film.
 

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For those who wish to make this tragedy into an opportunity to call for stiffer gun control laws, be aware that this incident took place in a city-state with the tightest gun control policies in the country.

Just food for thought.
 

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BooRadley said:
For those who wish to make this tragedy into an opportunity to call for stiffer gun control laws, be aware that this incident took place in a city-state with the tightest gun control policies in the country.

Just food for thought.
Indeed it is. Thanks. This underscores the fact that gun control laws really only punish the law abiding citizens. Any ideas how to make it stop?
 
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