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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, here's the deal:

'99 AEB, GIAC chip, N75j valve, good for 17psi on the stock K03.

I'm running into light amounts of knock timing retard at WOT. Instead of pulling the boost back (which is just plain no fun), I would like to instead give the engine the fuel it's asking for, and make a bit more power. I had heard that you can swap out the 210cc for the 252cc, LTFT's will drop to -20%, and things should be about right, plus a couple HP up top.

So I got to digging. On ECS Tuning's website, they show a set of 440cc injectors, and comment that "customers have had good luck using 440cc and a VR6 MAF". They make it seem like it's just a bolt-in mod, and something tells me that it isn't quite that easy. If this swap requires any tuning, I can't imagine it will be worth it for me (you can only move so much air through that little turbo). But I'm definitely a go-big-or-go-home type of person.

So, with that being said, does anybody have any experience with either of these swaps? Any help is greatly appreciated.
 

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the deal finder!
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do a 2nd or 3rd gear pull and log block 2. if you hit 16.32ms, then you could add slightly larger injectors. 440cc is way too big for stock program. vr6 MAF would make you run lean.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
D.Passat00 said:
do a 2nd or 3rd gear pull and log block 2. if you hit 16.32ms, then you could add slightly larger injectors.
I've done this datalog before, and this was exactly the result I was getting. 16.32ms injector pulse width, followed by a good amount of knock timing retard. The first thing I did was pull out the N75j and replace it with the stock c valve to pull the spike back down to a bar (which kept the injectors barely within their limits). But then I realized I was giving up power... and that sucks. :p


D.Passat00 said:
440cc is way too big for stock program. vr6 MAF would make you run lean.
I think it's the combination that supposedly works. 440cc causes a rich condition, and the VR6 MAF corrects it by leaning it back out. I just don't know if this is plug & play, or if it will require an AFC and some tuning. And furthermore, I don't know if it will be worth it, since I'm only running a stock K03.
 

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PassatWorld Staff
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IIWY I'd leave it alone. There's no way you can defeat the fuel trim mechanism. Whatever trims you wind up with (e.g. -20%), they are added to the open-loop maps. The only possible way to make it actually work for you would be to get an adjustable FPR and crank the fuel pressure down until you get some positive trim out of it. Even then it might not work.

Believe me, I know. I spent the better part of two years trying to defeat the fuel trim mechanism.

FWIW, I'm running 200 WHP on stock ECU, turbo, and exhaust. I got that as the sum of a lot of little parts (e.g. port-matching, removing the resonator, Random CAT, etc.) plus a few big ones - larger injectors, Cartech adjustable rising-rate FPR (since replaced by a PowerCommander III from a Suzuki GSX 1000), etc.

Read about my travails here: Rusty's Member Directory Post

Read about fuel trims and other fueling issues here:
Fuel Trim Information
FPR – Fuel Pressure Regulator Primer
fuel injectors
Fuel Trims
Upsolute grrr
 

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Everything Rusty said, plus with 440's & VR6 maf housing, I'm pretty sure you'd have idle problems which would even be tough to beat with an adjustable FPR. The maf signal curve is not linear and the difference in signal at the low end is much greater than the high end. This is part of what makes all the fueling adjustments that much tougher to get right.
 

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Rusty said:
...FWIW, I'm running 200 WHP on stock ECU, turbo, and exhaust. I got that as the sum of a lot of little parts (e.g. port-matching, removing the resonator, Random CAT, etc.)
what port matching did you do? exhaust side or intake side? thanks!
 

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PassatWorld Staff
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Both.
Intake = manifold and head (Gilette Foamy was my Friend)
Exhaust = manifold only

To be fair - the intake match provided hella gains, but it was a bit more than just a match. I attempted to get better flow around the injector boss, and better flow to the top two (small) intake valves by re-shaping the inside of the manifold. Once you get the mani off and start looking at how the air needs to flow, you'll kind of see what needs to be done.
 

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Rusty said:
Both.
Intake = manifold and head (Gilette Foamy was my Friend)
Exhaust = manifold only

To be fair - the intake match provided hella gains, but it was a bit more than just a match. I attempted to get better flow around the injector boss, and better flow to the top two (small) intake valves by re-shaping the inside of the manifold. Once you get the mani off and start looking at how the air needs to flow, you'll kind of see what needs to be done.

good to know. I attemped, unsuccessfully, to put the larger port AEB intake manifold on my small port ATW head. I even had a tapered phenolic spacer all ready to do. The injector seats are totally different, so unless i can find a AEB style injector with ATW injection characteristics, my mini-project is dead. :(

I port matched the exhaust manifold and had it extrude honed.

I'm guessing the gilette foamy was for filling the head ports before grinding? :)
 

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I thought AEB's have EV1 style injectors, but I could be wrong. ATW+ are EV12 for sure.

You can use Ford Motorsport EV1 style injectors on your ATW. You have to use a spacer kit (2 x 10mm spacers + 2 longer bolts) to raise the fuel rail in order to make the EV1 style injectors fit. FMS injectors also have a 4-hole spray pattern, the same as your OEM injectors. You can use an ECS spacer kit.

BTW I'm currently selling 4x440cc Bosch pico (without the long extension) EV12 injectors, 8x310cc FMS EV1 red tops and an ECS spacer kit in NL. I don't need those anymore since I've got the K04 and 5 bar file from UPsolute (installed yesterday).

440cc/min, direct fit


310cc/min, set 1, need spacers


310cc/min, set 2, need spacers


Spacer kit
 
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