[abuthemagician]

So my wife has a 2002 B5.5 Auto with a V6. Car has had engine issues recently but after working on it for 25 hours last weekend it was running better than it did when I bought it. Today she drove the car all over creation and it started / ran beautifully every time. We both were about to leave for dinner & a movie and the darn thing won't start. Won't even crank. Doesn't even try. With the evening cancelled, I dug into it. This car has never done anything remotely like this.

History:
1. Last weekend I replaced the passenger side head with a new one due to bad valves due to a bad cam chain tensioner. Everything went as planned, car has perfect timing. No CEL after clearing codes.

2. For a while now, when the key is turned to the off position but left in, the doors automatically unlock and the radio shuts off. It used to only do that when I pulled the key from the ignition

What I've checked:
1. Fuse 14 is good. Interior lights are on, gas flap opens, windows go up and down.

2. When turned to start, relay 185 clicks. Replaced it with a known good spare I have, and there was no change.

3. Tried jumping it with my work van, but it still does nothing.

4. Tried putting it in N to try and start it, same result.

5. Pulled relay 185 and jumped the 30 & 87 terminals. Nothing happens. (Will try this again tomorrow with a wire as the switch assembly I used might be faulty according to my multi-meter

Tomorrow I plan to take off the ignition switch and test it for continuity to see if maybe I need another one. I have read a lot of similar posts, but I am confused about which relay should have power and when. Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[Tomvw]

Relay #13 (in pos 13 on the relay plate) is a start inhibitor activated by a switch in the P & N positions.
Relay #12 (in pos 12 on the relay plate) is a start inhibitor activated by the alarm system.
Pins 30 and 87 of these relays are connected in series between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid.

 

[abuthemagician]

Thanks will check those tomorrow

 

[abuthemagician]

Have voltage across pins 30 & 87 on both relay 12 & 13 with the key in the start position.

 

[gigi123]

I am not looking at a schematic, but based on what Tom said, you need to have 2 relays ON (12 and 13) to get the starter to run. If you remove the relays and use 2 pieces of wires to "make the contact" for both relays, is the starter working?

 

[Tomvw]

Have voltage across pins 30 & 87 on both relay 12 & 13 with the key in the start position.

What voltage ?
This is not possible, did you take these measurements across the socket with the relay removed ?
With the key in start position, is there about 12V on term 50 (with the small wire connected) on the starter solenoid ?

 

[abuthemagician]

When tested the 2 relays I took one out at a time and tested them. Not sure I measured 30 & 87 after all. I even replaced the ignition switch but that did nothing. Tested the solenoid wire and got 12v when I tried to start it.

Turned out to be the starter itself. What a miserable job that was thanks for everyone's help. For those who find this later, here is how I got the starter out:

With a second person to help (and my small hands) I had to take off:
1. The tire (17mm lugs)
2. drive shaft shield (3 6mm hex bolts need Allen key socket),
3. wheel well plastic cover (torx screws)
4. belly pan (bolts & screws)
5. Remove front sway bar completely (16mm bolt and nut at ends, 13mm nuts in the middle).
6. Front metal mount that the bottom of the motor mount is bolted to (3 18mm bolts, 1 13mm nut). Also have to cut some zip ties to get the wire out of a channel attached to this mount. Get the wire out before taking the mount apart.

Starter bolts are both 16mm. The bottom bolt can only be accessed from below the car, I used a craftsman 1/2 ratchet, medium socket extension and a regular 16mm socket to get at it. It passes through the starter on the bottom and screws into the transmission.

The top bolt passes through the transmission and screws into the starter so you have to reach through the wheel well to get at it. There will likely be two hard coolant lines blocking your view of it. I could only fit a 3/8 craftsman ratchet (small head) with a regular socket in there. Used my long handle wratchet and a pipe over the handle to break the bolt free, then a short handle ratchet to get the rest. Had my helper keep the starter pushed toward the front of the car and pulled down to add tension on the bolts as the bolt was too loose my my ratchet, but too tight for my fingers.

Make sure to take out the bottom bolt first as you need to keep the starter pushed toward the front of the car to keep enough space for tools to fit.

To pull the starter out of the car, we rotated it a bit, then fanangled it out through the wheel well going over the drive shaft and under the flexible brake line.

Install is the reverse, making sure to install top starter bolt first. Sorry, didn't take pics.

 

[2002GLXV6]

Step #6 The lower motor mount bracket.
When re-assembling the larger of the 3 bolts the M12 bolt is a TTY bolt 81ftlbs +90º should be replaced with a new bolt. The other 2 M10 bolts are not TTY and are fine to re-use.
Also note the position of the alignment holes in the sub-frame and this lower bracket and re-assemble in the same position.

 

[John_E]

Thank you very much for the procedural writeup. The only VW/Audi starter swap I have done was on my younger son's 2.7T. We were able to push start him home, where we removed the alternator and then were literally just barely able to position and slide the starter forward and out where the alternator had been. I do not recall having to mess with sway bars or motor mounts, but then again this was a 2.7T.

 

[Tomvw]

Tested the solenoid wire and got 12v when I tried to start it.

This indicates a faulty starter, most likely just worn brushes.

 

[abuthemagician]

Tested the solenoid wire and got 12v when I tried to start it.

This indicates a faulty starter, most likely just worn brushes.

Actually the wire coming off the starter to the solenoid was broken and melted

 

[AndreasPassat]

Actually the wire coming off the starter to the solenoid was broken and melted

Ironically enough this is the first thing I thought of when I saw this post over the weekend.
I stayed out of it cause I really thought the other members were leading you down the proper path.
This same thing happened to my wife's '01 V6 GLS. The wire was completely melted.
At least now you know everything else is in sound condition.

 

[gigi123]

When the brushes wear out, all the inside gets messed up, brushes wires get tangled on the rotor and all of a sudden the starter draws a lot higher current than it should (sometimes the brush cables will short out a circuit, too). That's when the wires melt.

 

[AndreasPassat]

When the brushes wear out, all the inside gets messed up, brushes wires get tangled on the rotor and all of a sudden the starter draws a lot higher current than it should (sometimes the brush cables will short out a circuit, too). That's when the wires melt.

Now that I think about it, I still have that starter laying in the basement (kept it for a rebuild), I'm gonna look inside that thing and see what kind of condition its in.

 

[John_E]

When the brushes wear out, all the inside gets messed up, brushes wires get tangled on the rotor and all of a sudden the starter draws a lot higher current than it should (sometimes the brush cables will short out a circuit, too). That's when the wires melt.

Interesting -- this would help explain the failure mode with my son's S4, which started with melted insulation and a short to the starter.

Just a preliminary, qualitative thought, but perhaps for preventive maintenance one could monitor the cranking current periodically and schedule brush replacement when it starts getting too high.

 

[PZ]

I've pulled the V6 starter without pulling the sway bar bracket, but I have pulled the axle out instead. I find it gives a lot more room to work.

 

[Tomvw]

Just a preliminary, qualitative thought, but perhaps for preventive maintenance one could monitor the cranking current periodically and schedule brush replacement when it starts getting too high.

This wouldn't work, because as gigi123 stated, it happens suddenly.

 

[ylwagon]

This wouldn't work, because as gigi123 stated, it happens suddenly.

I tend to agree with that, as the only way the current could get too high is if either the thing was seizing up, or electrical shorting between windings.