2001 Passat V6 Timing Belt Installation Question

1589 Views 15 Replies 5 Participants Last post by skullkz, Jan 4, 2019

mypassatb5

Discussion Starter · Dec 31, 2018

I am new here. I am a seasoned DIYer and I am fairly skilled in fixing my cars. This does not mean I make no mistakes though.

My V6 30V passat has reached 170k miles so I did the timing belt job the 2nd time to it. I did the first at 100k miles and all was OK. The engine started and idled smoothly. It rev'ed up fine too. So I think the job is successful. I also had the cam chain tensioner gaskets replaced and new valve cover gaskets put on. All seem to be OK.

However, I noticed something. I hand cranked the crankshaft to the position so that the 3rd cylinder is at TDC. I found that while the bank 2's cam is perfectly aligned but the bank 1's cam is slightly off. I only own a cam alignment locking tool for a different VW engine. It is about 6 inches too short for the Passat B5 V6 engine. But I can attach it to one cam gear at a time and check if the other end is perfectly lined up horizontally. In this case the bank 2 is perfectly horizontal but the bank 1 is slightly off.

When I did the belt job I mainly relied on marking the belt and counted the number of tooth between marks to make sure the new belt goes back to the same setup. But the bank 1's cam is slightly off. And it looks like if the belt is stretched over time it would become perfectly lined up. I don't think the belt will stretch and becomes longer though.

I tried to readjust the belt by one tooth. That's a lot of work but I did it anyway. The bank 1 was still off a little but to a different (worse) direction. As soon as the engine was started it threw a code of p0341. I took it apart and adjusted it back 1 tooth. The engine then ran fine and rev'ed up fine again. The problem is the bank 1 cam looks still slightly off. I think the ECU did not find the cam angle to be out of range yet. My question is should I just drive the car and forget about it? I have let the engine idle, rev'ed up and down for quite some time. There was no code thrown.

I can try to get a correct cam locking tool and have the cams perfectly aligned. But i hate to have to wait for the tool and take even longer to get the job done. OKI should get the tool and have it done right. I am still curious why the bank 1 cam is off slightly? The cam gears were never loosened so they are at the original factory setup still. There is no code thrown by the ECU. Very strange.

All suggestions welcome. Thanks.

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skullkz

· #2 · Dec 31, 2018

The issue is you do no have to correct cam locking tool and the steps you do it in there are certain steps to achieve perfect timing all the time with no mistakes with or without tool and im going to put it you do not have the crank locking tool either and secondly you need to lock the cams with the tool to have both lined up and loosen cam gears you have to loosen gears. then you install your belt double check crank timing adjust your tensioner before half torquing cam gears to 30nm remove cam tool rotate engine a full rotation and check cam timing with tool to make sure it goes in perfect and smoothly with force *key thing* then check crank make sure that is good also, then you keep your cam locking tool on there fully torque to 55nm i always give a little more to be safe because used bolts are already stretched from 1st use. Then your all set. Id get the correct tools don’t take that risk. If you need more instructions I could pm you what you need to know from the Bentley.

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ylwagon

· #3 · Dec 31, 2018

skullkz said:
...and loosen cam gears you have to loosen gears.

I think that the essence of you text is that the OP should use the correct timing tools for the 30V 2.8.

You will need an appropriate puller to get the sprockets loose, but the cam bolts can remain threaded on, so the sprocket and puller don't fall off as it releases. The 2.8 V6 has a very long timing belt, so timing marks as used on the 1.8T would be unlikely to give identical timing to both banks in relation to the crank. Some other V6 engines use timing marks, but generally those are 60 degree-bank engines, with much shorter belts.

As to using the engine timing as-is: if you are content with how it runs, there is probably no harm in that.

PZ

· #4 · Jan 1, 2019

skullkz said:
before half torquing cam gears to 30nm remove cam tool rotate engine a full rotation

That is a recipe for a disaster.

PZ

· #5 · Jan 1, 2019

mypassatb5 said:
I am new here. I am a seasoned DIYer and I am fairly skilled in fixing my cars. This does not mean I make no mistakes though.

My V6 30V passat has reached 170k miles so I did the timing belt job the 2nd time to it. I did the first at 100k miles and all was OK. The engine started and idled smoothly. It rev'ed up fine too. So I think the job is successful. I also had the cam chain tensioner gaskets replaced and new valve cover gaskets put on. All seem to be OK.

However, I noticed something. I hand cranked the crankshaft to the position so that the 3rd cylinder is at TDC. I found that while the bank 2's cam is perfectly aligned but the bank 1's cam is slightly off. I only own a cam alignment locking tool for a different VW engine. It is about 6 inches too short for the Passat B5 V6 engine. But I can attach it to one cam gear at a time and check if the other end is perfectly lined up horizontally. In this case the bank 2 is perfectly horizontal but the bank 1 is slightly off.

When I did the belt job I mainly relied on marking the belt and counted the number of tooth between marks to make sure the new belt goes back to the same setup. But the bank 1's cam is slightly off. And it looks like if the belt is stretched over time it would become perfectly lined up. I don't think the belt will stretch and becomes longer though.

I tried to readjust the belt by one tooth. That's a lot of work but I did it anyway. The bank 1 was still off a little but to a different (worse) direction. As soon as the engine was started it threw a code of p0341. I took it apart and adjusted it back 1 tooth. The engine then ran fine and rev'ed up fine again. The problem is the bank 1 cam looks still slightly off. I think the ECU did not find the cam angle to be out of range yet. My question is should I just drive the car and forget about it? I have let the engine idle, rev'ed up and down for quite some time. There was no code thrown.

I can try to get a correct cam locking tool and have the cams perfectly aligned. But i hate to have to wait for the tool and take even longer to get the job done. OKI should get the tool and have it done right. I am still curious why the bank 1 cam is off slightly? The cam gears were never loosened so they are at the original factory setup still. There is no code thrown by the ECU. Very strange.

All suggestions welcome. Thanks.

You should be fine with the way the car is now, without a proper cam tool, it would be tough to judge how far the cam would need to be moved to be perfect. With the cam tool, you would only have to loosen one side, install the tool and lock down the pulley again. That can be done without service position. I would not worry about how this came to be, the belt can stretch but not very far.

skullkz

· #6 · Jan 1, 2019

PZ said:
That is a recipe for a disaster.

Excuse me? Please explain the recipe for disaster? I do these 2.8,2.7,1.8,2.0 with my eyes closed,

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skullkz

· #7 · Jan 1, 2019

PZ said:
You should be fine with the way the car is now, without a proper cam tool, it would be tough to judge how far the cam would need to be moved to be perfect. With the cam tool, you would only have to loosen one side, install the tool and lock down the pulley again. That can be done without service position. I would not worry about how this came to be, the belt can stretch but not very far.

So it’s ok to drive a car around with bad timing? I’d like to tell my customers that

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mypassatb5

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jan 2, 2019

Thanks to everyone's input to this thread. All your suggestions are taken and I appreciate you all.

I do have a crankshaft locking tool and a camshaft alignment locking tool 5 inches too short but usable. The only tool I don't have is a cam sprocket puller. I might try a pair of short C-clamp and see if they can pull the sprocket off. The reason to try that is I can do it quickly without waiting 4 to 7 days of UPS time.

I repeatedly checked the camshaft alignment and the bank 2 looks reasonably accurate. The bank 1 is off a little. If I had a correct length alignment locking tool it would be almost 1 inch too low on the bank 2 end while the bank 1 end is attached to the camshaft. I would consider it OK if it were only 1 cm lower. I have decided to do it right to loosen the sprocket and align it accurately.

This is the 3rd time I did timing belt for VW/Audi V6 engine. The first time was for this same VW Passat 70k miles ago. The 2nd one was for my 2002 Audi Allroad with a 2.7T engine 5 months ago. I did the TB by marking the belt and counting the number of tooth method for the first and 2nd job without any problem. It is the 3rd time that I find that the bank 1 cam to be off alignment. I believe I could drive the Passat the way it is. But it is not that difficult to get it done right when I have everything torn apart right now.

I am still curious why the alignment is off this time. This is probably why. I did not replace anything else but the TB for the first two TB jobs. I know some of you will probably say bad idea. I made a decision not to replace anything else was based on a believe that my water pump, TB roller, tensioner roller etc. were OEM. They all turned smoothly with no play that I could feel. I did not want to replace them with new ones that might be made in China with longevity doubt. Those rollers and water pump are replaced from the Passat this time. They still turn smoothly with no play whatsoever. But I think they have done their duty and it's time to be swapped out. What I did not anticipate is the cam alignment goes off a little. The TB kit I use is a Dayco one. The reason I chose Dayco was because the OEM belt was a Dayco brand (both the Passat and the Audi 2.7T had the same Dayco TB). The Dayco TB is made in Italy.

So I am going to do it the right way this time. I will report back how it goes when it is done in a week or so. Thanks again for everyone's suggestions.

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AndreasPassat

· #9 · Jan 2, 2019

It basically boils down to the cam sprocket not being loose on the bank 1 camshaft. With the cam sprocket being loose (by loose I mean just enough to turn on the tapered portion of the camshaft). When the camshafts have their static timing set to the timing marks on the cam caps and the static timing on the belt set by the marks on the crankshaft pulley relative to the marks on the plastic cover, then the diamond shaped keys will be exactly horizontal. Basically it allows you a finite adjustment that retarding or advancing the belt by one tooth can't achieve.

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ylwagon

· #10 · Jan 2, 2019

skullkz said:
"Excuse me? Please explain the recipe for disaster? I do these 2.8,2.7,1.8,2.0 with my eyes closed"

"So it’s ok to drive a car around with bad timing? I’d like to tell my customers that"

Skullkz, I have a suspicion that if PZ says something is a recipe for disaster, it probably is. Also, read all the posts again; nobody said anything about driving a car with 'bad timing' being OK. I prefer to time mine as precisely as the special tools allow, but no doubt millions of timing belts are changed by the old mark-paint match-paint method, without regard to timing marks or where TDC is.

AndreasPassat

· #11 · Jan 2, 2019

I'm gonna chime in here on this timing gear thing.

First off, I assume instead of gear we are talking about the cam pulley on the exhaust camshaft.

Rotating the engine before those cam pulleys are fully torqued can cause the cam pulley to slip radially around the camshaft which in turn will cause the static timing to be off. If off far enough, the pistons will hit the valves.
I'm with PZ on this one, not just because he mentioned it, but because it is a bad practice on the B5 V6 motor.

skullkz

· #12 · Jan 3, 2019

AndreasPassat said:
It basically boils down to the cam sprocket not being loose on the bank 1 camshaft. With the cam sprocket being loose (by loose I mean just enough to turn on the tapered portion of the camshaft). When the camshafts have their static timing set to the timing marks on the cam caps and the static timing on the belt set by the marks on the crankshaft pulley relative to the marks on the plastic cover, then the diamond shaped keys will be exactly horizontal. Basically it allows you a finite adjustment that retarding or advancing the belt by one tooth can't achieve.

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skullkz

· #13 · Jan 3, 2019

ylwagon said:
Skullkz, I have a suspicion that if PZ says something is a recipe for disaster, it probably is. Also, read all the posts again; nobody said anything about driving a car with 'bad timing' being OK. I prefer to time mine as precisely as the special tools allow, but no doubt millions of timing belts are changed by the old mark-paint match-paint method, without regard to timing marks or where TDC is.

And if you read my post i explained how it should be done. I did not say anything about paint marking to set timing. My point was and still is he dont have the correct tool to align what he needs to and even without the tool if he knew where and how it should be not having the right tool wouldn’t be a issue because you would know how to handle yourself in that case, and cam sprockets wasn’t loose all i said. I know what im saying maybe y’all don’t understand my explanation or something

*

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PZ

· #14 · Jan 3, 2019

skullkz said:
Excuse me? Please explain the recipe for disaster? I do these 2.8,2.7,1.8,2.0 with my eyes closed,

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You should not rotate the engine with the cams only half torqued. They are likely to slip and you end up with bent valves. While you may be experienced enough to know that they have not, for a single owner DIY, taking a chance like that can be catastrophic.

I am telling the OP that the engine would not self-destruct if the cam is off a fraction as it is not setting a cam code. If it were off a full tooth, it would set a code.

And yes, your initial post was not easy to understand for me. I do not intend to slight you, as my posts here are geared to the less experienced forum users.

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ylwagon

· #15 · Jan 4, 2019

skullkz said:
I know what im saying maybe y’all don’t understand my explanation or something *

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All of us replying have done 2.8 timing belt jobs, myself undoubtedly many less than PZ and AndreasPassat, but we all know what's involved. Maybe Tapatalk has something to do with it.

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skullkz

· #16 · Jan 4, 2019

PZ said:
You should not rotate the engine with the cams only half torqued. They are likely to slip and you end up with bent valves. While you may be experienced enough to know that they have not, for a single owner DIY, taking a chance like that can be catastrophic.

I am telling the OP that the engine would not self-destruct if the cam is off a fraction as it is not setting a cam code. If it were off a full tooth, it would set a code.

And yes, your initial post was not easy to understand for me. I do not intend to slight you, as my posts here are geared to the less experienced forum users.

Yea now i understand what your saying yea that’s true he maybe not that experienced to know all that i got you

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