Premium Fuel good for 20 ft/lb torque??

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Thread: Premium Fuel good for 20 ft/lb torque??

  1. #1
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    Premium Fuel good for 20 ft/lb torque??

    Is this crazy to believe?

    If you look at APR's website, they list their test results of the factory software with 93 octane as delivering 17 hp / 20 ft/lb of torque more than stock! I read another post on this forum by a member who has experienced better acceleration from premium fuel....this might be the reason. I encourage everyone to test it out...

    Additionally, has anyone else on this forum successfully been running an APR stage 1 for any length of time? I am wondering if our transmissions are capapble of handling the extra 70hp/ 99 ft. lb. of torque...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtbreen View Post
    Is this crazy to believe?

    If you look at APR's website, they list their test results of the factory software with 93 octane as delivering 17 hp / 20 ft/lb of torque more than stock! I read another post on this forum by a member who has experienced better acceleration from premium fuel....this might be the reason. I encourage everyone to test it out...

    Additionally, has anyone else on this forum successfully been running an APR stage 1 for any length of time? I am wondering if our transmissions are capapble of handling the extra 70hp/ 99 ft. lb. of torque...
    I have over 8k miles running sick! APR 93 flash

    Addicted, i would like to get the apr downpipe.
    This way i get a better wider power band.



    Sent from my Portable

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    Torqtube,

    Thanks, this is great to hear. Do you feel like your tune is too peaky? Or you are just craving more? Although 8k is good, I am hoping someone can chime in with a lot more mileage. I am only concerned about the transmission's ability to handle this kind of power increase without burning up fluid or clutch plates/bands. My previous experiences with software tuning have all been with manual transmissions and there was very little to worry about.

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    Great question about the trans i've been wondering the same myself because i wanted to add the stage 2 ECU & downpipe from APR which from their word would bring a 170HP to around 270HP. Would a stock Passat trans be able to handle this power?

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    Anyone worried that the APR ECU upgrade would void the warranty? I am all over this as soon as my warranty is up! Would also like to add and exhaust to hear the motor. The S3 which of course has the 2.0T sounds awesome for a stock motor in Sport mode. Want to hear the motor a little more.

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    I can tell you that in my time as an Audi technician, I have worked on many chipped Audis and have been unaware that they were ever chipped in the first place, as it is very difficult to find. Furthermore, Audi never seemed to be interested in denying warranty claims due to the car being chipped. I think think the most we risk by chipping our cars is if we had a major failure like the transmission, and they found there to be unusual wear, that we might risk being given the bill. However, I have never seen this happen. The closest thing that I saw happen was a customer who blew out clutches and manual transmissions from drag racing his car. We told him we would buy the first clutch and after that it is up to him to cover future repairs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtbreen View Post
    I am only concerned about the transmission's ability to handle this kind of power increase without burning up fluid or clutch plates/bands.
    You have good reason to be. VW automatic transmissions are slightly better than they used to be (in the 98-05 Passat models), but still not as forgiving as a manually shifted transmission with a clutch pedal.

    As posted above, you'll wear out clutch, pressure plate and flywheel (about ~$500-$600 in parts give or take 10%) doing launches from 3K...do the same on a modern automatic trans. and you're looking at a rebuild or new transmission after not too long.

    If I had a B7 w/Tiptronic or DSG, (think I'd walk first) I'd stick with running premium only and try to get some extra mass out of the car for better acceleration...otherwise I could be driving one of the very few de-contented "stripper" B7 Passat 1.8Ts with manual transmission and cloth interior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electron Man View Post
    I'd stick with running premium only and try to get some extra mass out of the car for better acceleration...
    With today's cars if it is designed to run on regular fuel all you are doing is lighten your wallet by putting in premium gas.
    The computers can sense what fuel is being used and makes any necessary adjustments.
    There is a website by an automotive engineer and race car driver who runs regular gas in his Corvette! It goes just fine !

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    Mexicokid,

    I agree with 100% in every case up to this point...however, if you read the op, you will see that APR found an extra 17hp and 20 ft.lb of torque in the stock software by running premium fuel...so perhaps these engines were actually programmed for premium but advertised with lower power output when running regular. Older Audi/VW products would also handle regular fuel and the ecu would pull timing so fast that you never heard it ping...yes you would end up making less power, but still relatively smooth.

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    Well, and to substantiate this claim our manual uniquely mentions that better performance may be achieved by using premium fuel.

    Is it true that in Europe, our 1.8L is used in Audi? Keep in mind that quite a few cars that share platforms (Acura/Honda, Lexus/Toyota, etc.) recommend regular fuel for the non-premium models, but recommend premium in the Acura or Lexus using essentially the same engine. They may intentionally limit their engines, but in this case VW may have not bothered. Instead for marketing purposes, just said the car will run on regular gas.

    In regards to the transmission, this should be easy to figure out. All transmissions are built/designed for a specific HP/Torque rating. Does anyone know the exact model of the auto used with the 1.8L? Maybe VW's media site has it hidden somewhere in a press kit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanson View Post
    Anyone worried that the APR ECU upgrade would void the warranty? I am all over this as soon as my warranty is up! Would also like to add and exhaust to hear the motor. The S3 which of course has the 2.0T sounds awesome for a stock motor in Sport mode. Want to hear the motor a little more.
    Yes u do void warranty, u sign a paper before they install it.

    Sent from my Portable

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mexicokid View Post
    With today's cars if it is designed to run on regular fuel all you are doing is lighten your wallet by putting in premium gas.
    The computers can sense what fuel is being used and makes any necessary adjustments.
    There is a website by an automotive engineer and race car driver who runs regular gas in his Corvette! It goes just fine !
    Well said, Mexicokid, it will compensate. But if you have a Apr 93 flash, you better make sure that the octane is right.

    Sent from my Portable

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtbreen View Post
    Mexicokid,

    I agree with 100% in every case up to this point...however, if you read the op, you will see that APR found an extra 17hp and 20 ft.lb of torque in the stock software by running premium fuel...so perhaps these engines were actually programmed for premium but advertised with lower power output when running regular. Older Audi/VW products would also handle regular fuel and the ecu would pull timing so fast that you never heard it ping...yes you would end up making less power, but still relatively smooth.
    We its all programming, but obviously proven to work at its best!

    Sent from my Portable

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    Quote Originally Posted by TorqTube View Post
    Yes u do void warranty, u sign a paper before they install it.

    Sent from my Portable
    Well in that case, I'll probably be waiting... Reason I got a new car in the first place is due to it having a warranty. ;-) Otherwise I would have gone for a used car like I always have in the past. Just getting really hard to fight the mod bug.
    How about this anyone heard of good or bad? NEUSPEED Power Module
    Just curious...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanson View Post
    Well in that case, I'll probably be waiting... Reason I got a new car in the first place is due to it having a warranty. ;-) Otherwise I would have gone for a used car like I always have in the past. Just getting really hard to fight the mod bug.
    How about this anyone heard of good or bad? NEUSPEED Power Module
    Just curious...
    Not sure about that..I do know people used it.

    But regardless the dealer will know, i could be wrong tho...

    I mean they really would have to look into the computer to see if it has been modded.

    Sent from my Portable

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    Quote Originally Posted by TorqTube View Post
    Not sure about that..I do know people used it.

    But regardless the dealer will know, i could be wrong tho...

    I mean they really would have to look into the computer to see if it has been modded.

    Sent from my Portable
    I guess the nice this about the module is that it can be removed prior to a dealers shop visit.

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    Thanson,

    I would recommend you stick with APR for the ecu tuning side. I have personally experienced APR and some other tunes in my time spent working as an Audi technician. I found REVO and some others to have poor drivability compared to APR...they all made power, but some are peaky and just flat out suck. Back in the day you used to have to saw off locking rivets from the PCM case so that the pcm could be removed and modified. This was the first clue that the car was modified. These days, none of that has to happen. It is very difficult for a technician to find out that your pcm is modified, and frankly, he has no interest in looking. Unless you come in with a nasty drivability issue that kicks his butt, he could care less if you have a tune in your car. They know that a certain percentage of the population that buy these cars are going to mod them...they are not trying to find out who is who....they just accept it and don't spend any further time worrying about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtbreen View Post
    Thanson,

    I would recommend you stick with APR for the ecu tuning side. I have personally experienced APR and some other tunes in my time spent working as an Audi technician. I found REVO and some others to have poor drivability compared to APR...they all made power, but some are peaky and just flat out suck. Back in the day you used to have to saw off locking rivets from the PCM case so that the pcm could be removed and modified. This was the first clue that the car was modified. These days, none of that has to happen. It is very difficult for a technician to find out that your pcm is modified, and frankly, he has no interest in looking. Unless you come in with a nasty drivability issue that kicks his butt, he could care less if you have a tune in your car. They know that a certain percentage of the population that buy these cars are going to mod them...they are not trying to find out who is who....they just accept it and don't spend any further time worrying about it.
    APR would be my first choice, but when it comes to voiding a warranty is it worth the risk? I did a giac flash on my 2002 passat. It was a daily driver and made a real difference seat of the pants dyno wise. Really want to enjoy this car to the fullest while I own it and that would mean getting the APR downpipe, intake, and ECU flash. Then adding a nice exhaust to hear the motor a little more, that is like music to me. Argggg, what to do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanson View Post
    APR would be my first choice, but when it comes to voiding a warranty is it worth the risk? I did a giac flash on my 2002 passat. It was a daily driver and made a real difference seat of the pants dyno wise. Really want to enjoy this car to the fullest while I own it and that would mean getting the APR downpipe, intake, and ECU flash. Then adding a nice exhaust to hear the motor a little more, that is like music to me. Argggg, what to do?
    I feel you one the concern over voiding the warranty, even though I know better. I wouldn't guarantee anything to you, but I have never seen or even heard of a warranty get voided. I have only seen it where they don't cover a claim that is pretty obviously the customers fault. If you went with an APR stage 1 and held off on the downpipe and intake, the dealer will likely never find out that you are chipped. Then when your warranty is up you can go stage 2 and add your bolt ons. Personally I have only a couple concerns about chipping these cars. 1. Can the tranny handle the extra power, and 2. Are the timing chains able to handle it without stretching too much? I am going to start investigating these concerns thoroughly pretty soon.

    I have never driven a Giac chip to my knowledge, what did you think of it? I personally think the very best chips out there are actually MTM. They are german, and the government over there regulates the chip tuning, ensuring that the tunes have factory like drivability. We used to have to send the ecu out to get it done, which was the only pain in the ass about it, as the customer was out of his vehicle for awhile. They didn't make quite the peak power that a comparable APR did, but it was butter smooth. I am going to look into those to see if they have a local rep who can flash the ecu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mexicokid View Post
    With today's cars if it is designed to run on regular fuel all you are doing is lighten your wallet by putting in premium gas.
    The computers can sense what fuel is being used and makes any necessary adjustments.
    There is a website by an automotive engineer and race car driver who runs regular gas in his Corvette! It goes just fine !
    If Regular is spec'd for the vehicle, then sure run regular all day. If the car is spec'd (or chip specs) Premium, then use it. From the experience of working on cars and having been in the service advisors seat, I saw real world mileage and power decreases when a Premium spec'd car was run on Regular. Maybe in a hot climate such as mine, it's more obvious. Two glaring examples were in the summers of 2005 and 2008 when Premium was $5.00 a gallon average. We had a number of Audi clients complaining about "poor mileage and power" because their friend read on the internet that they can use Regular and the car will run fine. Yes in theory it will run because the ecu is compensating for lower quality / octane rating by backing off timing,etc. Of course when questioned the answer was always "Yes, I'm using premium but I've lost at least 50 miles per tank". Meanwhile there was a receipt for Regular on the console from 3 days ago.

    If Regular was $4.25, Premium $.75 more per gallon and 15 gallons pumped at fill-up, you saved $11.75 when you pumped the gas. But then you lost 50 miles to the tank, at 20 mpg you pretty much lost 2.5 gallons therefore lost $10.63. So ultimately you saved $1.00.
    astrotraveler likes this.

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    Using regular in a car that recommends using premium and using premium on a car that "can" use 87 is a different. Like the other poster mentioned in the manual it says using premium fuel will provide more power, and in fact if you look on the VW web page they specifically state their HP numbers were acquired with "premium fuel" next to their tiny asterix .

    The transmissions on the 1.8T cars still use the Aisin 09G transmissions. Recommended Max Torque for this transmission (non-DSG) is 310Nm or 258ft-lb not a whole heck of a lot. An APR Stage 1 is capable of going above that in Torque numbers. But do you drive that hard constantly? . With most engine power mods you do it at your own risk. For those numbers I'd only go with slight bumps like a Neuspeed Power module, or a Burger Tuning JB1. No more than that. But that is me and my car. Its also easy to remove and completely non-detectable by VW. A tune by APR for this generation of ECU requires you to go into an authorized shop to remove the tune if you want to bring it into VW without it. Some shops charge every time you want to do this, while others do not YMMV.

    Seriously the Passat 1.8T is not meant to be a sports car, but this chassis is very capable (just look at Tanner Foust's V8 Passat drift car based on this chassis). I noticed it the first time I drove it. However VW chose to put parts on it for the general market who won't be driving it like Tanner . If you really want performance I'd recommend getting the VR6 Passat with DSG. 280bhp but add 300lb The engine and transmission is designed to handle the load though. I think the 1.8T or 2.0T with DSG would have been ideal for this car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtbreen View Post

    Additionally, has anyone else on this forum successfully been running an APR stage 1 for any length of time? I am wondering if our transmissions are capapble of handling the extra 70hp/ 99 ft. lb. of torque...
    Installed a 93 program at 16k miles. Now at 55k miles. The clutch slips a little now, so will probably install a South Bend clutch soon.

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    Problem with citing those sources is they lump all vehicles together (just like it was still the 1980s - "Klick and Klack just called and they want their fuel octane advice back"). Note the lack of any mention of specific models that have knock sensing (KS) ignition systems. Sorry, but all vehicles do not have KS ignition systems like VW/Audi.

    Lack of the mention of specific vehicles in any of these articles puts them firmly in the "Urban Myth" category as far as VW/Audi are concerned. Written by people who do not know that they do not know (i.e. fools).

    If you looked long enough, I'm sure you could find the same stories on Slate or The Onion.

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    I don't want to get into a p i s s i n g contest, but regardless of what car you drive the principle is still the same. You gain nothing using premium in an engine designed for regular fuel. No better mileage just more cost per mile driven.

    The only way to tell performance of an engine and your drive gear is on a "DYNOMETER" and not the seat of your pants !

    If you really want to prove it to yourself do a DYNO test using regular fuel and then after 3-5 COMPLETE fill-ups with premium do another DYNO test. These two will set you back about $ 60.00 or more.

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    From the following article:

    Should I Put Regular or Premium Gas in My Volkswagen?

    "The performance and fuel economy ratings of many Volkswagen vehicles are actually taken from models using premium fuel, so you’re likely to see some benefits if you choose a more premium type of gas. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mexicokid View Post
    I don't want to get into a p i s s i n g contest, but regardless of what car you drive the principle is still the same. You gain nothing using premium in an engine designed for regular fuel. No better mileage just more cost per mile driven.

    The only way to tell performance of an engine and your drive gear is on a "DYNOMETER" and not the seat of your pants !

    If you really want to prove it to yourself do a DYNO test using regular fuel and then after 3-5 COMPLETE fill-ups with premium do another DYNO test. These two will set you back about $ 60.00 or more.
    You are correct.
    If you read the first post, you will see that this discussion was started based on dyno testing that confirms a significant power gain on the stock program with higher octane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chois View Post
    You are correct.
    If you read the first post, you will see that this discussion was started based on dyno testing that confirms a significant power gain on the stock program with higher octane.
    You cannot apply these readings from the 1st posting to any vehicle which has not had their ECU tuned !!!!! VW APR Tuning

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtbreen View Post
    ...they list their test results of the factory software with 93 octane as delivering 17 hp / 20 ft/lb of torque more than stock!
    If you read the first post APR tested the STOCK tune with different fuel, and MEASURED a significant gain.

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    The original post does say factory software, no mods, with 93 octane fuel. Again, factory, OEM, software.

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