7 seconds a lap - UPDATE

[Rusty]

Seven seconds a lap. That's what I gained w/o the swaybars. Yup, believe it or not. Track day Sunday (yesterday), at www.sandiamotorsports.com. My former best lap was 1:42. My new best lap is, (drum roll)...
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1:49

AAAAAUUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!! Yes, I literally gained 7 seconds a lap. I'm so bewildered and befuddled and have all sorts of half-knowledge about suspension whirling through my brain right now, that I don't even want to try write anything about it.. I put this out to you guys for fodder...

:banghead: :rolleyes: :confused:

But I will add one other fact - I was faster through the hairpins than I've ever been. My long-time instructor even noticed it, and said he was going to have me start teaching the hairpins. :rolleye:

[1.8Tttturbo]

Rusty,

You're not getting your rear sway back from me. Driving has never been so fun lol.

:P

[NotAPreppie]

I might try this at my next autocross (this weekend). Wonder if that's legal in the Stock class.

[Beave Hive]

Is it possible there were significant weather changes between the track days? I know you play w/ your tuning often - have you made significant tuning changes since the 'best time' track day?

[Rusty]

OK, there were other factors.

(1) Driver timidity. I've been gun-shy ever since my accident on June 27th.
(2) down to 12 lbs boost vs. 15 lbs boost.
(3) My 1:42 may have been on a cool day - I don't remember. It was 100F yesterday.

But none of these explains the feeling of grease I had in the high-speed turns. It was perfectly neutral grease, and very controllable, it just wasn't fast. The last time the car felt this bad in the turns was when I had too much pressure in my Falken four-season tires. But I'm back to the Yoko AVS ES100s', and tire appearance indicated proper pressure. Left my pyrometer at home, though.

From everyone I've talked to, it would seem that this behavior is due to camber change from body roll. Around town and at lower speeds (e.g. hairpin turns) there's not enough vehicle speed to trigger it (the camber change), so the car sticks better in "normal" driving. Plus, getting rid of the sways reduces chassis flex, again contibuting to that solid, quick feeling with the bars off. But the higher track speeds get the car's body to roll past the point of bad camber change... I understand how this could be true, and probably is true, but I'm not totally convinced yet. I mean, .8 g's in a turn is still .8 g's, whether you're going 20 around a tight turn or 60 around a wide turn, right? :confused:

[ronaldmcdonald]

there's usually a lot of factors for sure, but the driving usually contributes to the biggest difference. its a good thing you're timing your laps. 'feeling' that you're going faster, doesn't necc. mean you are.

If you had a much larger front sway compared to the rear (as usually is the case with most oem setups), taking off both bars may have made the car easier to rotate. If other factors were held constant, you may have been able to get faster lap times. Odd you mentioned the driving got greasy. My first thought would be that it was the tires, but i've never heard of the es100's doing that.

[Rusty]

So I'm driving my car around town today, but still at track pressures (38F/34R). In the past (i.e. with swaybars), this has been a great thing for handling, if a bit harsh. Now, w/o the swaybars, the car feels like it did on the track - I can't feel the damn road. I'm starting to wonder if the absence of swaybars requires significantly lower tire pressures. It felt perfect around town with about 34 /30R...

And this jibes with what I felt with the Falkens when they were over-inflated. Feels exactly the same. :hmmm:

[scirocco78]

Remember, with the front suspension on these cars it takes a LOT to get any camber change. Whenever I look at pictures of my autocrossing I'm amazed at how little camber change there is compared to my jetta.

I'm thinking you're right about the lower tire psi without bars. Now you're depending on the springs and the chassis more instead of the sway bars and the tires "slipping".

Also remember that different tires have different traits. I had the ES 100's and couldn't make them stick for anything. I just assumed that they weren't suited for my driving style.

Great test data though! Down with fat front sway bars!

[Rusty]

Remember, with the front suspension on these cars it takes a LOT to get any camber change. Whenever I look at pictures of my autocrossing I'm amazed at how little camber change there is compared to my jetta....Thanks for reminding me of this. It was in the back of my mind that the four-link suspension was supposed to minimize camber change. :thumbup:

[stealthx32]

Hmm...I should get meself one of those stopwatch thingys. :D And ronaldmcdonald, activate your private messages, eh? :)

Yeah, timidity is probably the #1 thing that's hurting your times. Its great that the hairpin feels more comfortable, but the fact that you know you're being timid means that the other 99% of the track is being featherfooted. :P What I usually do then, is ask my instructor to have a ride in their car...and watch myself get owned in a vehicle with 1/2 the power and twice the weight. :lol:

[Rusty]

I feel pretty darn good today. After realizing yesterday that it was behaving on the street the same as on the track, I lowered tire pressure this morning, back down to 34/30. What a difference! Car feels crisp and tight. Fascinating... I'll try 32/28 soon.

If this is what it is, and I do need less pressure now than before, track and street - that's pretty amazing.

I've noticed this new set of tires is wearing even more perfectly than previous sets. Would sorta make sense - with the bars forcing all that weight transfer to the outside wheel, you'd need higher pressure to compensate...

Those guys at the track are gonna bust a gut if I come to the next track day (October 16th) and break 1:40 with my swaybars still off... :lol:

[AJChenMPH]

And you wonder why race teams are constantly tinkering with suspension adjustments and tire pressures. ;)

Let us know how it goes, Rusty!

Andy

[Rusty]

And you wonder why race teams are constantly tinkering with suspension adjustments and tire pressures. ;)

Let us know how it goes, Rusty!

AndyGeez, I'm sure getting an education! This is so much fun I can hardly stand it. Really - no sarcasm!

[ronaldmcdonald]

hmm..yes, this is quite interesting info to keep in mind. pls do keep us updated nonethless. :)

stealth-i activated my passatworld pm's. You can also reach me at h-t (i waste more time there), or just give me ring as well, whichever you prefer.

[Rusty]

So, on my drive back from L.A., I dodged a pothole on the freeway that I wouldn't have even tried to dodge with the sway bars. "Flick-flick" and I was around it no problem. Even if "no sways" proves to be ultimately slower around the track, I'm leaving them off. It's just too good on the street.

[JROO-VW]

your moderator nickname should be the 'mad tinkerer'

good luck with getting perfection.. i'm almost done with mine!

[stealthx32]

Sorry, I read that as tinkler. :oh:

[Rusty]

Well, I tinkle pretty good, too.

[Gregor56]

I am still trying to find a front with a lower rate than the standard piece, I think it would compliment a shine rear nicely.

[stealthx32]

Hmm. You're gonna be hard pressed to find an aftermarket bar that's softer. You're best off lookin' to earlier Audi models and seeing if you can find a fit there.

[Lima_dat_alone]

I removed my front sway bar last weekend when the girlfriend was away. WOW. It is "flickable" just like rusty says. I LOVE it so far on the street.

[Gregor56]

No I knew that I was thinking about some of the euro models and if they might have a different bar on the front.

[scirocco78]

I'm still searching for the lower rate front bar myself. I have Shine working on it in the back of his head also.

[stealthx32]

You could always make your own... ;)

[scirocco78]

Didn't I read an article in Grassroots Motorsports about grinding down sway bars to get the desired affect?

[Gregor56]

I am of a limited value when it comes to projects needing complex math, otherwise I would make my own in a heartbeat.

[Rusty]

I removed my front sway bar last weekend when the girlfriend was away. WOW. It is "flickable" just like rusty says. I LOVE it so far on the street.Don't forget to tinker with your tire pressures. I'm at 32F/28R right now, as opposed to my former normal 34F/30R. Seems about perfect.

[cranium]

Its an odd thing playing with suspension set-up. The principle is: soft=traction hard=less traction.
But if you factor in all sorts of other variables like weight, balance, center of gravity, spring rate, dampers, suspension geometry etc.. it becomes very clear there is no one-size fits-all solution. for most folks, lowering the center of gravity, increasing spring rate will produce the most profound effect.
Anti-sway bars in principle take away traction but counter-act body roll. As you know, they also help to keep your inside wheel planted. On a RWD car this is essential as you can use throttle to steer almost as much as the steering wheel. On FWD cars its not as cut-n-dry. They can help most on long sweepers and high speed tracks. This may be why you made better times through the esses.
Well crap, i dont know a ton about how to make my passat truly handle on a road course but i know theres no common recipe for all situations.
Next time, get some video of you running the course. You can learn alot about both your driving and your cars dynamics from studying that.

[Msquared]

It's not as linear as soft=grip and hard=less grip. The ideal suspension is sprung and damped just stiff enough to keep the tires on the ground over the ideal bump. But the ideal suspension doesn't lose camber and suffer bumpsteer and has infinite travel (no bumpstops) and so forth; and the ideal bump means there's only one size of bump in the world and it's always taken at the same speed. So in the real world, most pavement-going cars need suspensions that are much stiffer than "ideal." And swaybars don't reduce grip overall any more than springs do - they just redistribute loads across diagonals which adjusts rear grip relative to front grip by altering the lateral load balance of each end of the car.

Rusty, of course taking off the front bar did seriously increase your front grip relative to the rear. That is probably nearly as effective as a Quaiff in taming front-wheel peel out of slow corners. And it doubtlessly feels great in slow, tight turns. But the problem is that vehicle stability goes down as velocities increase. And so when you try to take those long, faster sweepers the car is constantly trying to swap ends. That is not the fast way around a track. And for any transition, the car is destabilized by the maneuver and such a loose-handling car is begging to spin. Also, I plotted the camber curves but I would bet the car is losing some negative camber relative to the ground (forget about relative camber to the car body) and that's increasing with increased front roll. I also don't know what happens to the front roll center with roll on a B5, but it's probably moving around a good bit. It could be diving below ground, further reducing front roll stiffness, or moving upward thereby increasing front jacking and reducing overall grip, or moving laterally thereby loading one diagonal a lot more than the other. And with the front bar removed, even the rear suspension is rolling more (just not as much more as the front). Now the rear suspension really loses negative camber with roll, so you're not just gaining oversteer by increasing front grip at the expense of rear grip, but you're also losing overall grip.

So one correctly assumes that a perfect setup for a skidpad is too loose for any kind of roadwork. And the perfect setup for autocrossing is too loose for high-speed tracks and maybe bit too loose for street driving (but maybe within safe limits if you are already instinctive with car control - i.e., you instinctively add throttle to an oversteering and long since forgot all the stupid crap they tought you in your last defensive driving course). And the perfect track setup might be about right for a good street driver. And btw, the differences between good autoX and track setups are greater for a fwd car than an awd car and especially for a rwd with any power, since getting power to the ground with rwd car entails some amount of steady-state understeer which is the oppositive of fwd. Given the unexpected maneuvers that crop up during street driving, it's hard to recommend a loose car to anybody here. Going 70mph and having to slam on the brakes and do a sudden lane-change is the most destabilizing thing you can do to a car, and a loose car is not going to make for a good outcome even if you're good with car control.

My take on all this is the the stock B5 is obviously pretty stable and too biased toward rear grip for serious track or autocross use. But taking off the front bar is not the way to go faster. I think a serious argument would exist for taking off the front bar while increasing spring rate a lot, like 50%-100% stiffer than stock. The rear spring and damping rates are much stiffer for the mass they suspend than the front, and our cars tend to rotate vertically around the rear axle line because of that. What we need to know is what percentage of the total roll resistance is provided by the front bar, and then make up much of that with increased spring rate when we remove the bar. OTOH, on a road sedan that is daily driven, you tend to then end up with a car that still leans too much overall and rides quite harshly and very like loses overall grip over bumps and holes due to lack of suspension compliance. So on a road car, the case is then made that the car should have a lot more wheel rate in roll than in pure heave (both sides moving up or down together). This points back to soft springs and big bars. Ahh, but then you have a hard time optimizing damping rates for both roll and heave with the same damper on each corner - it's either damped too stiffly for heave or too softly for roll. Recent formula car monoshock designs have resulted in cars with front suspension completely undamped in roll, but they are also sprung very very stiffly to keep the aero package working properly. So there are all these tradeoffs. My guess is that the best setup on a road-going B5 is adding a rear bar and also increasing front spring rate. Then find the best compromise for damping all of this.

PS - There you have it, Rusty!

[triptronic]

So, on my drive back from L.A., I dodged a pothole on the freeway that I wouldn't have even tried to dodge with the sway bars. "Flick-flick" and I was around it no problem. Even if "no sways" proves to be ultimately slower around the track, I'm leaving them off. It's just too good on the street.


So in Th3 stR33t: the passat is good the way it came? fudge the sways?
Good info.

[cranium]

It's not as linear as soft=grip and hard=less grip. The ideal suspension is sprung and damped just stiff enough to keep the tires on the ground over the ideal bump. But the ideal suspension doesn't lose camber and suffer bumpsteer and has infinite travel (no bumpstops) and so forth; and the ideal bump means there's only one size of bump in the world and it's always taken at the same speed. So in the real world, most pavement-going cars need suspensions that are much stiffer than "ideal." And swaybars don't reduce grip overall any more than springs do - they just redistribute loads across diagonals which adjusts rear grip relative to front grip by altering the lateral load balance of each end of the car.

Rusty, of course taking off the front bar did seriously increase your front grip relative to the rear. That is probably nearly as effective as a Quaiff in taming front-wheel peel out of slow corners. And it doubtlessly feels great in slow, tight turns. But the problem is that vehicle stability goes down as velocities increase. And so when you try to take those long, faster sweepers the car is constantly trying to swap ends. That is not the fast way around a track. And for any transition, the car is destabilized by the maneuver and such a loose-handling car is begging to spin. Also, I plotted the camber curves but I would bet the car is losing some negative camber relative to the ground (forget about relative camber to the car body) and that's increasing with increased front roll. I also don't know what happens to the front roll center with roll on a B5, but it's probably moving around a good bit. It could be diving below ground, further reducing front roll stiffness, or moving upward thereby increasing front jacking and reducing overall grip, or moving laterally thereby loading one diagonal a lot more than the other. And with the front bar removed, even the rear suspension is rolling more (just not as much more as the front). Now the rear suspension really loses negative camber with roll, so you're not just gaining oversteer by increasing front grip at the expense of rear grip, but you're also losing overall grip.

So one correctly assumes that a perfect setup for a skidpad is too loose for any kind of roadwork. And the perfect setup for autocrossing is too loose for high-speed tracks and maybe bit too loose for street driving (but maybe within safe limits if you are already instinctive with car control - i.e., you instinctively add throttle to an oversteering and long since forgot all the stupid crap they tought you in your last defensive driving course). And the perfect track setup might be about right for a good street driver. And btw, the differences between good autoX and track setups are greater for a fwd car than an awd car and especially for a rwd with any power, since getting power to the ground with rwd car entails some amount of steady-state understeer which is the oppositive of fwd. Given the unexpected maneuvers that crop up during street driving, it's hard to recommend a loose car to anybody here. Going 70mph and having to slam on the brakes and do a sudden lane-change is the most destabilizing thing you can do to a car, and a loose car is not going to make for a good outcome even if you're good with car control.

My take on all this is the the stock B5 is obviously pretty stable and too biased toward rear grip for serious track or autocross use. But taking off the front bar is not the way to go faster. I think a serious argument would exist for taking off the front bar while increasing spring rate a lot, like 50%-100% stiffer than stock. The rear spring and damping rates are much stiffer for the mass they suspend than the front, and our cars tend to rotate vertically around the rear axle line because of that. What we need to know is what percentage of the total roll resistance is provided by the front bar, and then make up much of that with increased spring rate when we remove the bar. OTOH, on a road sedan that is daily driven, you tend to then end up with a car that still leans too much overall and rides quite harshly and very like loses overall grip over bumps and holes due to lack of suspension compliance. So on a road car, the case is then made that the car should have a lot more wheel rate in roll than in pure heave (both sides moving up or down together). This points back to soft springs and big bars. Ahh, but then you have a hard time optimizing damping rates for both roll and heave with the same damper on each corner - it's either damped too stiffly for heave or too softly for roll. Recent formula car monoshock designs have resulted in cars with front suspension completely undamped in roll, but they are also sprung very very stiffly to keep the aero package working properly. So there are all these tradeoffs. My guess is that the best setup on a road-going B5 is adding a rear bar and also increasing front spring rate. Then find the best compromise for damping all of this.

PS - There you have it, Rusty!


so, what i said but with more depth and thought :thumbup:

[Rusty]

...And so when you try to take those long, faster sweepers the car is constantly trying to swap ends. That is not the fast way around a track. And for any transition, the car is destabilized by the maneuver and such a loose-handling car is begging to spin...

...PS - There you have it, Rusty!Cool, thanks Matt! I appreciate your brain for suspension. :thumbup: :thumbup: However, I must clarify that at high speed, it does not feel like it is constantly trying to swap ends. That little dodge of a pothole at freway speeds was rock-solid. What I experienced on the track was a perfectly neutral feeling of driving on grease. Both the front and back ends wanted to come out together. That's why I'm thinking tire pressure. I guess I'll know on October 16th (next track day).

[Msquared]

What I experienced on the track was a perfectly neutral feeling of driving on grease. Both the front and back ends wanted to come out together.

Well that's good, then. Since dampers have hunormous effect on transitional behavior, then it sounds like yours are dialed in pretty well. And they certainly come into play somewhat even on relatively smooth sweepers, since the entry and exit always involve suspension movement and even steady-state cornering does unless the pavement is glass smooth and level.

The only way to know for sure is to test on the same tires, same day, back to back with and without the bar. But in any case, let us know what you find on the next track day.

[Rusty]

:thumbup:

[Rusty]

So, I'll lower my c.g. with a lightweight battery: http://www.passatworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193478

And I'll stiffen the chassis with structural foam: http://www.passatworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193604

And I'll put linear-rate race or near-race springs on the car (leaving the sway bars off, of course), and everything will be just ducky!

Oh, and I might need the CPP adjustable upper control arms... I rotated the tires the other day, and I'm getting significant wear on the extreme inner 1" of both front tires. Otherwise, tire wear is perfect, including the rears - since I got the rear axle beam replaced (bent due to pothole). The rears were wearing way bad on the inside edges before.

[Rusty]

The last track day, where I lost "seven seconds a lap," was right in the middle of my "horrible fluttering misfire" woes. There was no misfire at the track, but the weird tuning I did to ensure no misfire, plus the weak ignition from the bad coilpack, certainly had me down on power.

I have a new street to do my 3rd gear dyno runs on. It's very close to my house, but is just barely long enough to get to redline before it curves.

In July (last track day), even when it didn't misfire, I was hitting the curve before I hit redline. This past weekend, I hit redline 6 to 8 carlengths before the curve. Same level of boost - 12 lbs. This is promising!

Track day this Sunday - I can't wait!

[JROO-VW]

tinkering...

[Rusty]

Got my seven seconds back.

It was a great track day. Don't ever go to the track w/o the pyrometer. Eyeballing, and even chalking for rollover, doesn't do it right.

First session was crap. Just as greasy and queasy-feeling as the last track day. I was sofa king timid... I pyro'd the tires after the first session, and added some air. But I was so depressed I almost went home. Thank God I didn't.

Second session - the increased pressure felt a lot better and increased my confidence a bit, so I started pushing a bit more - and went RIGHT OFF THE TRACK - WOO-HOO!!! That's exactly what I needed. Sitting there in the dirt, laughing my ass off, was exactly what I needed to break that timid cloud. I hopped right back on the track, and after another pyro and further increase in pressure, proceeded to burn consistent 1:42's through the third session.

So when I went off - the car went off in exactly the same orientation as it was on the track - no spin, no front first, no back first, it just perfectly, neutrally slid off the track. I love this car w/o swaybars.

[JROO-VW]

I fear that the competition will be one sides when next we meet Rusty ;)

[stealthx32]

How much pressure are you running now, and on what tires?

FWIW, I ran around 45/52 psi hot on Falken RT-215's w/ a P&P rear sway. Got nice and greasy after about 15-20 minutes. :D

[Rusty]

Tires are Yoko AVS/ES100's, 225/50x15

"Hot" pressures on the last session were:

LF-46 RF-48
LR-37 RR-39

Note these were not "fresh off the track" pressures, but "fresh off a couple of cool-down laps and around the pits and get out the airpump and hook it up to the cigarette lighter" pressures.

There's more LH turns than RH, hence the higher pressures on the RH side. Maybe I could have gone higher, but I was happy and done for the day. I haven't measured the cold pressures yet - hey, I'll go do that right now...

Cold:
LF-40 RF-42
LR-34 RR-36

Whew, glad I got that done. Now I can lower to street pressures. I love the firm ride but I hate wearing out the center tread...

I gotta do something about brakes. The first time I jumped off the track to pyro the tires, my left front pads started smoking. I'm convinced it's that damn Brembo rotor design, combined with the thin air up here. I didn't have a problem at Lime Rock - same pads, same rotors. Gee, that was over a year ago! That was a blast, Justin. :thumbup:

[Rusty]

I fear that the competition will be one sides when next we meet Rusty ;)heh-heh - just wait 'til I get my PSS9's... ;)

[mitchyz250f]

How much did the H&R OE Sport springs lower you car? Also aren't they about the softest aftermarket springs you can get? Did your ride comfort improve after removing the front swaybar? How does the ride compare to stock? Compared to stock springs and Bilsteins? How much does it lean in turns compared to a stock Passat?

That is all I can think of.

[JROO-VW]

heh-heh - just wait 'til I get my PSS9's... ;)


I'm waiting.. whats the excuse for a trip over to the east coast for next year ;)

[Rusty]

How much did the H&R OE Sport springs lower you car? about 3/4"
Also aren't they about the softest aftermarket springs you can get?Yes
Did your ride comfort improve after removing the front swaybar?Maybe - hard to say.
How does the ride compare to stock?The "ride" compared to stock is controlled mainly by springs and shocks, not the anti-roll bar. The anti-roll bar affects "handling." The ride is great - much better than stock, without being anywhere near too "hard" for the average passenger.
Compared to stock springs and Bilsteins?I don't know.
How much does it lean in turns compared to a stock Passat?It's been a long time since my car was stock, I hardly remember. But IIRC, my car leans a lot less now w/o the roll bar, than it did fully stock with a roll bar.

I'm going to stiffer springs/shocks soon. Maybe hard enough to annoy the average passenger - but these people are not welcome in my car anyway... :lol:

[Rusty]

I'm waiting.. whats the excuse for a trip over to the east coast for next year ;)Hoping to do the Glen this spring, no excuses necessary! :)

[JROO-VW]

oh goodie... i've been anxious to get back up to the glen... let me know when you were thinking.

[Rusty]

May is what I'm planning for. :)

[GreenCar]

I miss the Glen, spent a lot of time there as a kid. Wish they'd put the chicane back... :)

[JROO-VW]

they have the bus stop... i believe they only run additional chicanes when nascar runs the glen.

[GreenCar]

I was talking about the old chicane between turn 1 and the esses. They called it the Schecter (sp?) chicane. Added in the early 70's and taken out when Corning got involved.

I saw a lot of G Production cars jump that puppy. :)

Sorry, didn't mean to threadjack. :)

[Rusty]

...Sorry, didn't mean to threadjack. :)
Hey, in this forum, there's no such thing. If you're talkin' racin', it doesn't matter... :D

[AJChenMPH]

Did someone mention Watkins Glen? :D

http://home.nyc.rr.com/achen47/Passat/WatkinsGlenBusStopSmall.jpg
http://home.nyc.rr.com/achen47/Passat/WatkinsGlenEssesSmall.jpg

I know, I know, I'm a pic whore... ;)

[scirocco78]

That's cool AJ! :bowdown:

[JROO-VW]

I'll one better that.... me and Rusty ;)

http://images6.fotki.com/v1/photos/4/42331/244197/DSC_4050800x600-vi.jpg

[JROO-VW]

what a crew...

http://images2.fotki.com/v22/photos/4/42331/244197/P1010012-vi.jpg

[Rusty]

Ah, good memories...

http://home.comcast.net/~rragan7540/Passat/pics/watkinsglen.jpg

[crew217]

Hoping to do the Glen this spring, no excuses necessary! :)

Let me know what event you're doing and i'll sign up. The Glen is only ~ 25 mins away and I have an Stage III S4 buddy, A4 buddy and an R32 buddy that go up all the time for events.

Dave

[GreenCar]

Oh, I hate you all...

:)

My father used to race a SCCA B Production Shelby Mustang at the Glen in the 70's. Camped on the infield over many a weekends there. Used to be able to cut through the woods and sit right behind the Armco on the front straight.

[Rusty]

Dang, Dave - you live right there in Ithaca - I'd never snapped to that before. Cool! Sounds like you've got a good track day crew there... oops - hah-hah "crew" hah-hah...

Right now I'm planning on SCDA's first event of the season, which is usually early May. God willing, I'll have suspension and wheel/tire upgrades by then, and maybe even a brake upgrade. Hell, maybe even a GT25R turbo - but that's a real stretch...

Sounds like Justin's there - Andy, can you come up from DC?

[JROO-VW]

well you could always make it a road trip ;)

rusty comes from n.mexico!

[GreenCar]

Oddly enough, I was just in Western New York a couple weeks ago and will be in ABQ for New Years.

[Rusty]

Small World, ain't it?