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No start, no crank, no click on 2001 1.8t auto

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#1 · (Edited)
The issue was resolved by replacing the starter. As I have made several wrong turns and misdiagnoses, I am noting my errors in bold in each of my posts below.

The car is a 2001 B5 (pre-refresh) Passat 1.8T auto wagon. One day it suddenly refused to start; there is no crank and no click at the start position. Everything electric in the car works, including dash lights, interior lights, AC, stereo, and windows. A new battery was installed seven months ago.

The car has an aftermarket alarm system and aftermarket stereo installed by PO. The aftermarket alarm seems to be inactive while the original VW alarm works. One oddity this car has had for the seven months I have owned it is that the doors would lock and the alarm would arm when the ignition was turned off (8/10 times approximately, this did not always happen).

This is what I have done so far:
- Tried starting in neutral. No effect.
- Checked battery voltage. I got ~12.2 V at the posts and connectors, and a drop to ~11V when turning the key to the start position.
- Replaced fuse F14. No sign of damage on previous fuse.
- Replaced ignition switch. There was some burnt plastic on the interior end of the switch, and the twisting action was a lot looser than on the replacement switch I installed.
- Replaced relay 185 (in position 12 on relay carrier). No sign of damage on the outside or inside of the old relay.

With the new ignition switch and relay 185 installed, I checked power to relay 53 in position 13 using a tester light. With relay 53 removed and the key in the start position there was power to the rightmost slot of position 13 (terminal 86 if I am not mistaken).

After verifying that relay 53 in position 13 SHOULD be getting power with the key turned to start, I put that relay back in and re-checked that there was no tactile or audible response from the relay when attempting to start the car.

Am I correct in assuming this means relay 53 is suspect and may need to be replaced?

If replacing this relay does not solve the problem, is the next step to test power at the starter connections?

Where is the starter located in the engine bay? I have read conflicting advice on this in other threads, but most seem to suggest it is on the passenger side towards the front of the engine compartment and at the bottom, near the passenger-side motor mount. Is this correct, and, if so, would I have to remove the front clip to test connections at the starter?

Looking at the front of the car (engine code AUG), the starter was to the left of the timing belt and tucked up behind the AC compressor. The starter body was next to the passenger side bottom engine mount and the solenoid was further up in the bay.

Thanks!
 
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#2 ·
Here's a real good source of info on this topic... http://www.passatworld.com/forums/6...y-not-cranking-comprehensive-diagnostics.html

The one monkeywrench in the works is your aftermarket alarm. Who knows how it's grafted into the car wiring, what functions it's supposed to have and what functions are still working. I'd follow the trigger signal and see where it is being held up. A schematic would be helpful. They can be found in the back section of the Bentley Manual.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Thank you for the link. I am slowly making my way though the steps. Assuming the relay in position 13 is good (which the replacement should be) I believe I will have ruled out everything listed except ground connection at the starter and the starter positive circuit and the starter itself.

At that point, it sounds like I can get at the starter to do the additional testing by jacking up the front end and looking underneath by the pass. motor mount / wheel well.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I replaced relay 53 in position 13 on the relay carrier and did some more tests following the above link.

2: If not about 12V in test 1, check terminal 30 on ignition switch, if not about 12V check circuit through relay panel to battery.
12.1 V with the car off.

If about 12V in test 2, check terminal 50 on ignition switch, if not about 12V with key turned to start position, replace the ignition switch.
11.5 V in start position. (Terminal was marked 50B).

Is there solid ground less than 0.5 ohm (don't check while voltage present) on terminal 85 (T9/6) ?
Resistance measured out at 1.2 ohm, so apparently too high relative to what the guide says. Does that mean the grounding is bad?

With the key in start position, is there 12V on term 86 (T9/4) ? If no, check red/black wiring to ignition sw.
11.8 V in start position.

Relay plugged in, and everything connected.

3: With the key in start pos, is there 12V on term 30 (T9/2) ? If no, check red/black wiring to ignition switch.

4: With the key in start pos, is there 12V on term 87 (T9/8) ? If yes, the relay is working.
Is there a way to do this test without totally taking the dash apart? If I am reading it correctly, the relay in pos. 13 has to be plugged in and the tests are on the top and bottom terminals with the leads wedged in between the relay and the connector.

T10d is a 10 pin connector, (brown) on protective housing for control units, left in engine bay.
Does anyone have a picture of this connector or better yet its location? I opened the protective housing and did not see a brown connector. Is this next to the relay marked "30," or are they one and the same?

T10d was in the box on the driver side in the engine bay, just under the windshield wiper. It is on the side of the box closest to the windshield. The thicker red/black wire is the one carrying current to the solenoid.

Edit: I am leaning more and more towards suspecting something is wrong with or around the starter. If it really is next to the passenger wheel well, it went through a deep puddle a day or so before the car stopped starting. Has anyone had issues with the starter or its wiring failing after being exposed to water?
 
#6 · (Edited)
smac4th what ended up being the problem/solution on your sister's car?

On another note, I finally found the starter. Therefore,

To check all ground connections in the starter circuit.

With the key in start position, measure the voltage with the positive probe on the starter body (make good connection) and the negative probe on the negative battery post (Not the connector).
If not less than 0.6 volts, there is a bad ground cable or connection.
Instead of connecting to the starter body you could connect to the valve cover, this would miss one place that is very unlikely to have a bad connection.
I did this test both ways: negative lead on the battery negative post and positive lead on the valve cover; and negative lead on the battery negative post and positive lead on the starter body. Both tests showed 0.02 V in the start position. So… less than 0.6 volts = grounding OK? Having trouble following the double negatives in the guide.

Edit: did the starter positive circuit test (I think so).

To check the starter positive circuit.

With the key in start position, measure the voltage with the negative probe on the starter terminal 30 (where the large wire from battery connects) and the positive probe on the positive battery post (Not the connector).
If not less than 0.5 volts, there is a bad cable or connection.
I hooked up the negative probe to what I think terminal 30 is (see pics in next post) and the positive probe to the positive battery post. In either position I tried, the voltage was about 12.2 V at rest and 11.7 V at the start position. So… "not less than 0.5 volts" meaning there is no bad cable or connection and the starter itself is fried?

I missed terminal 30 when doing this test. I also did not have good ground for the voltmeter negative lead and the battery may have already been getting low.
 
#7 · (Edited)
The two positions where I hooked up the negative probe for the starter positive circuit test.

Position 1:
imgur: the simple image sharer

Position 2:
imgur: the simple image sharer

The skinny wire in the foreground is the probe and the thick wire I assume is "the large wire from battery." Or did I miss terminal 30 entirely?

The picture does NOT show terminal 30 on the starter. The thick wire goes from the battery to the solenoid, which sits higher than the starter body seen in these pictures. I did find that taking off the clip guiding the black wire helped access the solenoid terminals.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Doing further research on these symptoms I found some threads claiming the issue is with the CCM and/or the neutral safety switch. Anyone have insight on why these are not included in Tomvw's guide or what tests would rule out a fault with CCM or the NSS?

The CCM and NSS are involved in closing the circuit at the relays in positions 12 and 13. Following Tom's guide and jumping over each of these relays would have revealed if the problem was with a given relay, including faults in the wiring from the CCM/NSS, respectively.
 
#9 ·
I did a quick check of the CCM for water damage. Here is the area around the CCM: imgur: the simple image sharer

There was some moisture but no large puddle.

Taking the CCM out, the box felt dry and securely closed. Notice big wad of electrical tape from PO/aftermarket alarm install (?) imgur: the simple image sharer

The CCM looked dry on the inside. All the wires had been cut and reconnected, but everything seemed dry and I did not see any obvious corrosion. imgur: the simple image sharer

Another view of the inside of the CCM: imgur: the simple image sharer

There was one exposed splice I found: imgur: the simple image sharer . Nothing seemed obviously wrong with it however.

After closing the CCM and putting it back under the carpet, I verified again that its functions worked: interior lights, stereo, windows and moonroof. Together with the absence of moisture in the CCM or evidence of corrosion, this leads me to suspect the starter / solenoid is at fault.

Anything I might have missed outside of the starter and its wiring? Any insights on a bad neutral safety switch as a possible cause of not cranking?
 
#10 · (Edited)
Finally got the car on a lift. Also recharged the battery and verified car will not start with battery fully charged. Anyway, with the car lifted up I was able to properly do the starter tests listed in the guide above.

To check all ground connections in the starter circuit.
With the key in start position, measure the voltage with the positive probe on the starter body (make good connection) and the negative probe on the negative battery post (Not the connector).
If not less than 0.6 volts, there is a bad ground cable or connection.
0 Volts at start position. Beforehand I had tried doing this test with the probe touching a bracket which was causing a 12.0 V reading. So, 0 volts is "less than 0.6 volts" meaning no bad ground cable or connection?

To check the starter positive circuit.
With the key in start position, measure the voltage with the negative probe on the starter terminal 30 (where the large wire from battery connects) and the positive probe on the positive battery post (Not the connector).
If not less than 0.5 volts, there is a bad cable or connection.
0 Volts, so "less than 0.5 volts," meaning no bad cable or connection?

1: Check terminal 50 (Small wire) on starter solenoid, with key turned to start position.
If about 12V, repair or replace starter and/or solenoid.
Only 0.08 V at start position. So, no power to starter solenoid in the wiring from the ignition switch?

For the record ignition switch works (terminal 30 and terminal 50 passed). Does the wiring go ignition switch -> relay in position 12 -> relay in position 13 -> starter solenoid? What would be between relay in position 13 and the starter solenoid?

I did the last two tests with bad grounding of the voltmeter negative lead and a battery that was not fully charged. With good ground and a charged battery, I later obtained ~12V in both tests which suggested the fault was with the starter or solenoid.
 
#11 ·
When I wrote the DIY I thought most Passats didn't have relay #12 so didn't pay it much attention.

If you have a relay in position 12, you can check it in a similar way, but the relay coil is controlled by the alarm system.
You could bypass relay 12 with a jumper across its contact pins, could be either 30 & 87 or 30 and 87a.
It appears you have a problem with the alarm system or relay circuits.
Relay #12 supplies power to relay #13, I suggest you connect a jumper across relay #12 socket. (this can be left permanently)
(or remove the cover and hold the contacts closed while attempting to start)

If it does start you have a problem with the alarm system or relay #12 circuit.
 
#12 ·
Thank you Tomvw for the response. I have finally gotten my hands on a wiring diagram as Steve has suggested. Looking at it I realized that replacing the relays alone will not guarantee power getting through. If understand the schematics correctly, bad wiring in or from the CCM can prevent the circuit from closing in the #12 relay, and bad wiring in or from the neutral safety switch can prevent the circuit from closing in the #13 relay. From #13 onwards the circuit goes through the brown 10-pin connector in the engine bay and to terminal 50 on the starter solenoid, which is where the power was not getting to in my testing last night.

I am going to recheck power to relay #12 and try to bypass it per the above post and see how far down the circuit I can get 12 V.
 
#14 ·
As you're digging through wires and harnesses under the dash, keep an eye out for any part of this starter circuit that has been modified due to the after market alarm system. For all we know, the extra alarm also has means to make that circuit stay open and keep the starter from running. Watch for cut OEM wires with after-market wires crimped or soldered on to them and splices covered with electrical tape.
 
#15 ·
Watch for cut OEM wires with after-market wires crimped or soldered on to them and splices covered with electrical tape.
The CCM was full of this. All the OEM wires were cut and there was at least one incompletely insulated splice. I will keep an eye out for more of this mess elsewhere under the dash.

Thank you all for the advice so far!
 
#16 ·
Looks like I flubbed some of the tests (again) this past Sunday. Today, I used the wiring diagram to follow the trigger signal all the way from the ignition switch to the starter and everything checked out. ~10V at terminal 50 on the starter with the key in the start position and 12V at terminal 30 from the battery. Ground was OK per the test in Tom's guide (positive lead on starter body, negative lead on negative battery terminal, had 0.04V in start position). Taking off the left bolt on the starter bracket and moving the wire to terminal 30 out of the way helped position the multimeter leads to do these tests correctly.

So, starter and/or solenoid are done for and I am ordering a replacement starter.

For what it's worth I did attempt jumping across relay #12, relay #13, and also checked that the red/black wire in the brown 10 pin connector by the ECU had 12V when the key was in the start position. Completing all these tests successfully led me to question my earlier diagnosis of no power at terminal 50. Sure enough, I must not have gotten good ground with the multimeter leads last time I tried to measure there.

I will update this thread once starter installation is underway.
 
#17 ·
If there is 12V at the 10 pin connector and 10V at terminal 50, there is a fault in the wire or connectors between them.
Before pulling the starter, do the starter test in my DIY (Post #2)

Note: The starter primary circuit tests in the DIY are not totally valid if the starter solenoid does not activate.
 
#18 ·
Tom, I will do the starter test jumping from T30 directly to T50 on the starter. If the test shows a wire or connection is bad, but I have 12V at the red/black wire to terminal 50 in the 10-pin connector by the ECU (last stop before terminal 50 on my wiring diagram), does that mean the fault with the wiring is somewhere in the engine bay, that is between the 10-pin connector and terminal 50 on the starter?
 
#20 ·
Follow Tomvw's advice, you will find out what is wrong.

FWIW, I experienced a problem with the wire between the 10-pin connector and the starter... I never dug into it enough to find what the exact problem was, but replacing that wire made my symptoms (exactly the same as yours) go away and starter/switch operation became normal and dependable. Just wanted to let you know that this can be a failure mode. Do Tomvw's starter test ("How to test a starter" within the link of Post #2). If the starter runs, and you have 12V at the 10-pin connector, then concoct a replacement wire and hope for the best.
 
#21 ·
Thanks for bearing me as I was working through this. I made sure the battery was charged then found 11.9V at the red/black wire connector going to terminal 50. Disconnected red and black wire from terminal 50 and jumped directly from terminal 30 to terminal 50 on the starter, to no effect. Replaced the starter and now everything works! Thank you all again for the advice.
 
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