2002 1.8T Brake Fault STOP after replacing brakes?
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  1. #1
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    2002 1.8T Brake Fault STOP after replacing brakes?

    Hi guys! I have a 2002 1.8T.
    Got a message it was time to replace front brakes and change all brakes. Did as you "should" by Haynes manual, read in the forums about others with exactly same problem and did as they said. Still I have this error message in the middle display. 3 beeps, STOP Brake Fault and then the (!) sign on the right as well.

    If this happen what can cause it? As I have checked the fluid + connections could it be electrical error on the sensors to the front brakes? If it is how can I try it or are there other possible options that could cause this?
    Could I still have air in the system even that I have pumped it up like 200000 times?

    Would highly appreciate some inputs and as I said before I read and follow the previous tip in here but it didn't help =/

    Thanks in advance!

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  3. #2
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    The front brake sensors won't throw a STOP error.

    I would guess a fluid level issue or air in your system. Why did you have to pump your brakes so much? Did you bleed your brakes or something? If you got air in your system, you might need to do a bleed of your ABS pump with a VAG-COM.

    BTW, I don't believe in opening up the brake bleeder just to change out pads. That thing shouldn't be opened unless you're actually bleeding the brakes. I don't buy the "pushing crap back up the lines" thing unless you haven't changed your brake fluid in 10 years.

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    well, holdup.

    if you replace ALL pads at the same time without bleeding the system, and keeping the reservoir closed (under pressure) then that could have something to do with it....
    maybe the differential valve sensor is kicking off because of that.

    i say bleed if not for anything more than sh*ts and giggles.
    really couldn't hurt.

  5. #4
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    Ctobio: Ok so the STOP will not be caused by front pads only, right? I had to replace the oak on one side and that was the reason the system bleed. Then I got this error message and try to get rid of it by pumping and pumping but it made no sense.

    Sipes216: Yeah I did could that be the reason? If that's the reason are there anyway to locate and fix the problem on your own?

    If I forgot first time to say I have both STOP message + the front pad light symbol in yellow (O) + the red (I) symbol. Guess I must have done something terrible stupid but I feel lost and don't even know where to start to locate the problem as it feels it could be too many different things and I'm not that skilled either.
    I only put new pads + renovated one oak + new brake plates back on both sides.

    Thanks guys!

  6. #5
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    Sounds like you could have damaged something. Could you list the steps you used when you changed the brakes in detail?

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    Greizer: Here's is what I did, feel free to ask for details if I forgot something important you need to know. (And it was the first time so I could have done something insane without even be aware of it) =)

    From start I got check brake pads and the (O) symbol and the brake pads front was totally wasted so it was correct, not a electric fault.

    1. Replaced front pads and loosen one of the brake pipes just a little by mistake, some fluid came out but just very very little on one side.
    2. Started to replace back pads on one side and realized the oak was not working as it should so I took it away. Never sealed the fluid tube on that oak, just put plastic on it and let it stand about 24 hours while renovating the oak.
    3. Put back the oak, new discs and pads, then next back pads and discs without any problems.
    4. Filled up fluid, pump out the air starting from right back, left back, right front, left front. No air is coming out and I have pumped so much I'm sure unless it could be "pockets" inside with air somehow? Not sure how it works on passat.

    Now the exact error message I get is STOP Check brake system, symbols (O) which should be for bad front brake pads and then also a (I) in red and STOP.
    So I'm confused the (O) still is lighten? Even if I messed up something in the brake system that symbol should as far I know only light when the front brake pads are bad or ?

    Also I don't get when filling up brake fluid. Why does it get so slow into the system and then in between it's running easy and swallow a lot and then stands more or less still after a while again?

    I never removed the fluid cap until I was finally done with everything (not good I know now) so the fluid was probably far below minimum while working with the brakes.

    So that's pretty much in detail what I did ..... Still I don't have a clue what messing it up now cause I have checked everything twice except the electric connections from the front brake pads.

    All tips and welcome and sorry if I use strange words as I'm in Sweden hehe ...
    Cheers!
    /T

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    I am pretty sure you have air in the master cylinder, how soft if the pedal ?

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    You answer faster than a shark =) Thanks man!
    You mean the master cylinder in the oak I "renovated" ?
    The pedal is pretty stiff but not as stiff after I first only replaced the front pads, it was stiffer after that then after replacing the pads back.
    How can I check this and fix it? Hard to do?

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    Yes I would agree that you need to bleed the brakes again according to the bently procedure, which includes bleeding the master cylinder. It does sound as if your master cylinder is air locked. I've never done that but it's not difficult. Also what is this "oak" you are mentioning? I think you are using the wrong word for something but i'm not sure what it is.

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    Hi and thanks again for your great help! I really appreciate it.
    I see I did some major direct "Swenglish" sick translations hehe ....
    When I say discs I mean brake rotors and when I say oak I mean as you say cylinder =)
    We call cylinders OAK's in sweden and brake rotors for brake discs =)

    Anyway when you say MASTER cylinder do you mean for each brake? I have 4 master cylinders or do you mean there are another cylinder that somehow are connected to it all? Or should I continue to bleed the one I renovated?

    Do I need to take out air from the clutch as well? I think I read something about that in the Haynes book that it was connected to the brake fluid as well?

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    It seems like you need a little translation for the nomenclature here:

    Master Cylinder- located in the engine compartment, this is where yor brake pedal is attached and where you fill the fluid.
    Calipers- the hydraulic mechanism that actuates the brakes at each corner. You call them OAKs.

    Here's what I think happened. You introduced air into the anti-lock brake pressure modulating valve. In order to bleed this out, you need an electronic tool that can talk to the anti-lock brake computer and tell it to cycle its valves and bleed itself. Commonly, in the USA there's a device called a VAG-COM that will do the trick. Not sure what's available to you locally, but a mechanic who specialized in VWs would have access to something equivalent.

    My guess is that when you removed the rear caliper to rebuild it, the brake line somehow drained out completely and air got in from the top. This can happen easily, especially if you walk away from it for a few hours like you said you did, and it's not obvious because when the master cylinder gets drained completely, only half of it does. So giving the master cylinder a quick look might give the illusion that it is full, but half of it got drained out and empty, resulting in air getting into that brake circuit. I expect it to take about 200ccs of fluid to drain out all the fluid from the line to the master cylinder.

    If you ever remove a caliper to replace it, you must either replace it quickly, or seal off that brake line. I have a number of old brake fittings that have a spot-weld on the end for just this sort of task, but alternatively you can use a piece of hose with a screw on the end that fits tightly over the brake tubing.

    It's unlikely that the clutch got air in it- despite the fact that it shares the same reservoir, unless you actuated it with the reservoir completely empty, air won't get in, and it shouldn't affect performance of the rest of the braking system.

    Incidentally, when I install a brake caliper, I typically don't need to pump it to bleed it. I fill the reservoir, open up the bleeder, reconnect the line, attach a clear tube to the bleeder, and watch the tube until it stops getting bubbles coming out of it. I let gravity do the work, but I make sure the master cylinder is full.

  13. #12
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    The master cylinder is the big black round thing in the engine bay near the fluid resevoir.

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    Thanks so much for the answers and I guess you're totally right.
    Also thanks for the updates on words in real English =)
    I will get brake caliper next time for sure but I hope it will take a while before next time now.

    Anyway for your info as well today I was out and removed the electric connector from the fluid box (below it) and used connector fluid and voila then check brake pads message was gone.
    The pump and pump about 0.5 liters of new fluid through all cylinders but still this STOP message so as you say it must be the master cylinder and now I also understand where it's located.
    Guess it will be impossible to work on the my self as you said ? Will read my Haynes books tonight and see if I can do anything more otherwise I guess I just have to leave it over to a VW guy.
    I could have been wiser for sure but at least I learn =)

    When you talk about doing the VAG-COM and master cylinder to bleed it self. Where do you open up for the fluid to take out the air? Don't need any pushing on the brakes or anything?

    Btw, after taking out air again the clutch feels much stiffer? Could that be correct or am I just seeing demons =)

    Thanks again guys!
    /T

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greizer View Post
    The master cylinder is the big black round thing in the engine bay near the fluid resevoir.
    NO THATS THE BRAKE BOOSTER. MASTER IS UNDER THE FLUID CONTAINER.

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    I just read in my Haynes book and I understand where it is and so on but still not sure what to do "with it". Remove it and get a vag-com and just hit bleed ? =)
    Don't get how to fill it up and make sure it works and it's filled up.
    If I do this should I check air pressure in each single caliper after that?

  17. #16
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    I've accidentally let air into the ABS system before. Basically, you do a normal bleed at each corner, and then you follow the directions on the VAG-COM site for how to do a ABS system bleed. Oddly, I've never had to do anything other than to tell the abs pump to bleed itself, and voila, it does. I didn't have to open up a bleeder valve anywhere.

    It cannot be done without some device to talk to the ABS computer and tell it to run this procedure.

  18. #17
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    I see! Have been reading about OBD and vag-com and similar for a while now. Seems like a must have. Do you have the cable "only" or also a handheld kit? Thinking of which to get. You use your laptop right?
    Thanks!

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4MOTIONV6 View Post
    NO THATS THE BRAKE BOOSTER. MASTER IS UNDER THE FLUID CONTAINER.
    RAAAAAAAH!!! HULK SMASH!

    To put it a different way, don't use Caps Lock.

  20. #19
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    Hi ho guys!
    Today I check everything I could and then went down to my local official VW dealer. They hook on the computer and it was nothing wrong at all. No error codes, nothing!
    Still it beeps 3 times, STOP and brake fault. Why did didn't reset it for me I don't know but what could be wrong? Where are the sensors located that even have with the brakes to do? Are there any way to find the eventual broken sensor? I'm not skilled but as they don't have errors with their official equipment I guess it can't be nothing else than a sensor that is damaged? OR ?
    Thanks again!

  21. #20
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    It's possible the ABS electrical module is on it's way out, but I have not seen that on the later models (B5.5) yet. The dealer should have been able to confirm that with a scan.

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    Hi ,
    I have a 2001 1.8T.3 months back my local mechanic told I need to change my front break pad. I told I will change it in next visit. Two weeks back I got error message in the middle display. 3 beeps, STOP Break Fault and then the (!) sign on the right as well...But it disappeared when I stop and restart.

    Ok next day left my car to mechanic for breakpad, oil change,...and some other work. I already have O2 sensor bank2 problem. I asked him run diagnosis and change O2 sensor also. When he ran it he got 2 more code for ABS .due to budget constraint But I told him whatever, I will change it later. So still I am getting the exact same error(error message in the middle display. 3 beeps, STOP Brake Fault and then the (!) sign on the right as well then It will go on off)

    I am giving the codes. Please let me know how critical is this? CAR IS RUNNING FINE.

    Address 03: ABS Breaks
    Part no: 3B0 614 111
    Component: ABS/ASR 5.3 front D00
    CODING: 0021

    2 Faults found
    01203 – Electrical connection between ABS and Instrument cluster
    03-10 –No signal – Intermittent

    18256 – Please check DTC memory of engine controller
    P1848 -35-10 ----Intermittent

  23. #22
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    KPRGroup- you probably need a rebuild of your ABS controller.

    www.modulemaster.com

    You can remove the electronics and send it to the rebuilder, and the vehicle is still driveable (albeit without ABS, which you don't have now anyway).

    Should run about $250, and it's a reasonably easy DIY.

  24. #23
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    Thanks for the reply.I am living in Florida(Warm weather).Just I don't like to change this now.(Since I spend more in (last one year) almost 2000$ on different repair.) Do you think can I go with this other 3 months? Do you think is this critical one?(Is this kind of must need change??)

    Thanks
    KPR

  25. #24
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    Well, kprgroup, you don't have antilock brakes now. If you can live with the fact that your braking system is not performing as well as designed, by all means keep driving. I personally would want my brakes to work properly.

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