Ordered a new key fob from Ebay
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  1. #1
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    Ordered a new key fob from Ebay

    I ordered a new key fob from Ebay which already has the blank installed. I set up an appointment for tomorrow morning for the dealership to program the key into my cars computer (from my understanding this is necessary since it is an '05). Dealership says cutting the key is free and programming costs $45. However, the service guy went on and on about how keys from Ebay NEVER work because they dont have the chip in the key. So he said they will cut and try to program but can almost guarantee that it will not work. Is this just a ploy to force me to buy a key from them? Has anyone else purchased a key from Ebay and had trouble? The Ebay sellar had awesome feedback and sells mostly keys. I am asking because I want to be cautious and the dealership tomorrow, they have a REALLY bad rep in town of lying and cheating. Thanks for the help and advice!

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  3. #2
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    should be free period.... maybe cutting might charge but programming should be free...

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    That $45 charge is not bad (mine charges $100), but remember to bring all your keys along because it will essentially lock out all the other keys if they aren't all present during the procedure. MY2001 and up has the Immobilizer III unit, so the dealer (or someone very well versed on a VAG-COM) is neccesary.

    The remote programming is easy and can be done by an end-user. In fact I think the procedure is in the manual. It involves the driver door, the ignition, and another key.

    As for cutting the keys, mine did it for free. Some however will refuse to cut an "unknown" blank on their machine because the material the blank is made of might be too hard (and damage ther channel cutting machine).

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    I have had a few key fobs that wouldn't work myself. 45.00 sounds fair.

  6. #5
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    A little research and you will find out that different dealers handle key different ways and charge different fees

    1) Some dealers don't even have the key cutting equipment. They will want to order the key from VWOA using you VIN. They still have to code it though. These are the dealers that charge $150 for a key and a remote and another $100 for coding. BEware,....run away,... fasr

    2) Another dealer I checked out would cut and code in house up to 4 keys for 1 hours shop rate ($100, :Yikes: ) You still have to provide the keys and remotes ($50 for a keyend, $100 for a remote.

    3) The dealer I went with only charged $15 per key (I had 4 done) if I provided the keys and remotes..

    Picked up some used remotes for about $25 on Vortex. Got a couple of new oval keypads for $12 each. Now the remotes look like new.

    I bought my keyends from https://www.1stvwparts.com/partscat.html. Keyends cost about $28, Remotes about $72. Non-remote Keys cost about $25. These stuff is brand new VW OEM parts. Nothing used. In fact, 1stvwpart is actually a real VW dealer in Auburn, Washington. Don't bother trying to find the parts using the online catalog, Just call and ask for the internet parts person (Zeb). He'll hook you right up.


    Problem with Ebay is that you never know what you are going to get. Some vender put cheap STEEL key blades from China that can ruin the cutting equipment. I heard that once IMMO 3 RFID keyends were programmed, they couldn't be reused. I have a 2000 Passat wagon so I don't know if thats true or not.

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    Thanks for the replies! I did a search and compared to prices others have posted $45 seemed fair to me as well.

    Although the service guy did mention the material the blank key was made of as well. He didnt say it would damage his machine but did say that if it was cheaply made then the cutting may not be accurate and therefore may not work. If this is the case, do most dealers sell just blank inserts or do you have to purchase the entire key fob from them?

    The main reason I was concerned was because the guy was adamant that absolutely NO key bought from Ebay would work. He says NONE of them even have the immobilizer chip in the key and therefore cannot be programmed. This seemed hard to believe.

    Finally I cant find the thread right now but somewhere I read that the remote programming, as found in the manual, would not work on newer passats. I had read that not only did they have to be programmed, but they had to be added to the cars computer as a valid key using a VAG-COM. Is this wrong?

    Thanks again for the help!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old_School View Post
    I heard that once IMMO 3 RFID keyends were programmed, they couldn't be reused.
    That's correct. Once coded they can only be recoded to the same car.
    This is probably the source of the VW tech's comments, however I was able to source a replacement chip and that worked fine for me. They are available and are cheap.

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    So , the bottom line is,.... at least for jtaylor42

    All depends of course on whether the KeyFob you purchased is actually NEW or or USED. If in fact it's NEW, then you should be ok. If you are dealing with a keyend with a USED RFID chip, then you need to get another Keyend.

    The keyend that you bought from Ebay probably not work because you have an IMMO 3 equiped car (2005, B5.5) and the RFID chip has already been programmed to another vehicle. The remote should work if it's a AM or DC model.

    Best thing to do is buy a NEW keyend from 1stvwparts.com. It'll cost about $30 + Shipping. Get it cut and programmed by your local dealer. He won't be able to bitch about Ebay because the parts are real OEM VW parts.

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    Indeed. The half of the key fob that holds the retractable key 'blade' also contains a small transponder. It's about the size and shape of a piece of rice. In immob-3 cars, the transponder is locked once it has been adapted to a particular ecu/cluster. After that, you can only use the keys on a car having the same immob-id stored in the ecu/cluster. I once found german and uk suppliers that will sell those tansponders for about 8 euros, each...

    I believe, however, that in immob-2 cars, the transponder is not locked. The transponders in immob-2 cars are identical -- check the part numbers -- but when you adapt them to the car, the cluster does *not* lock them. If you can find used keys from an immob-2 car, you might be in business...

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    I purchased a keyfob on ebay - the guy said it would work with my car - took it to the dealer to have cut and programmed - material for the key was crappy so they couldnt really cut it - it kept jamming the machine - and you can program it to the alarm, but not the immobilizer - so pretty much a waste of money.

    edit: i wonder if i could just buy the key blank from the dealer that could be cut and programmed for my immoblizer.
    Last edited by mleosu; 01-23-2007 at 03:45 PM. Reason: add more

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    Quote Originally Posted by mleosu View Post
    edit: i wonder if i could just buy the key blank from the dealer that could be cut and programmed for my immoblizer.
    The blades on the switchblade Fobs are replaceable but I'm sure that dealers don't advertise that fact. Blades made by "Huf" are the OEM ones. Hella might make some as well. If it doesn't say "Huf" AND "HAA" (That's the key's profile) then don't buy it. Blades can be removed by pushing out the small (and I mean small) spring pin that's visible when the blade is half open. No need to disassmble the key end as shown in the picture Use a small nail or punch. A watchmaker might be able to help you out.

    There are in fact 3 major parts to a switchblade key FOB.


    1. The blade - Held onto the pivit by a small pin on the key end. As said before, should be Huf or Hella manufacturer. HAA profile is a master key in that it will mechanically lock or unlock any lock cylinder on the car (Doors, ignition, trunk, glove-box, ect) NAA profile keys are used in valet keys, they only unlock driver's door and ignition. Usually you can only buy the keyblade as an entire keyend. NOTE: Keyends are separate part numbers than their remotes ends.

    2) The RFID Chip - Small electronic component contained in the plastic housing of the key end. Actually epoxyed in, and difficult to remove from housing (But it can be done). This chip sends out a coded signal when interrogated by the Immobilizer. If the immobilizer doesn’t recognize the code in it’s memory it will tell the ECU to shut down the car’s engine. It does nothing with the central locking or alarm system. Repeated efforts to start a vehicle with a key that is not recognized by the immobilizer may lock out ALL keys for a period of time. RFID chips are sold as part of a keyend. Make sure you get the right keyend for the right Immobilizer (2 or 3) and remote (oval or square buttons). Unless you have the SKC (Secret Key Code) your only option is to go to an authorized VW dealer for coding. The dealer acesses the SKC code from VWOA via a secure internet connection. Not even the tech sees the code, so don't bother asking




    3) The Remote – I believe the part number for all MKIV, B5 and B5.5 is 1J0 959 753 XX. Depending on the model and year of the vehicle XX is either E, F, T, AM or DC. E,F, (Oval buttons) and T (Square Buttons) are for IMMO 2 cars, AM and DC (Square Buttons) are for IMMO 3 CARS. You do not need a VAGCOM to program the remote. The proper procedure to program a MKIV and B5 remote is: Not sure why B5.5 should be any different. The remote's operation has nothing to do with the Imobilizer operation

    1. Insert any one of the working keys into the ignition lock and switch to the ON position without starting the engine.
    2. Using any of the remaining keys, manually lock your car from the outside.
    3. Press either LOCK or UNLOCK on the remote (to be programmed) once, then wait 2 seconds.
    4. Press either button again once.
    5. Switch off ignition and remove key from ignition.
    6. You should hear a beep as a confirmation that the programming is completed

    You can still program a remote using one key if you remove the driver’s door lock cylinder first and substitute a small screw driver for the second (outside) key
    Last edited by Old_School; 01-24-2007 at 10:03 AM.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mleosu View Post
    edit: i wonder if i could just buy the key blank from the dealer that could be cut and programmed for my immoblizer.
    You can. The half of the key assembly that contains a blank metal key, and transponder (but not remote buttons) is:

    1J0 837 246 F

    This part is correct for all Immob-2 and Immob-3 cars.

    If you ask for:

    1J0 837 246 F INB

    This, I believe, indicates that the key is 'factory cut'. You'd have to order this part along with the key pattern code that came with your keys. Such keys would arrive pre-cut.

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    Wow that is a lot of great info guys and I appreciate it very much! I dont know how you guys learn so much about all this stuff!

    Just as an update I did visit the dealer this morning and they said the key blade was bad material and they would not cut it. They also said it does not have an immobilizer in the key. They said they could tell this by the markings on the key blade which is bogus b/c the blade had been switched to a blank, so obviously doesnt affect the internals of the key fob.

    From what I understand from everyone is that if I get the blade cut I can program it (using the instructions in the manual) and be able to unlock the doors and such, however, I will not be able to drive the car using that key because of the immobilizer. So pretty much it is a useless key.

    Not a huge deal because my wife really doesnt care all that much about having an actual key fob. I just thought it would be nice to get her one since I have one but didnt want to pay $250 to the dealer. Thanks again for all the help though guys!!!

  15. #14
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    Deleted cause I didn't fully read the previous post correctly ,......duhhhhhh

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    1. The blade - Held onto the pivit by a small pin on the key end. As said before, should be Huf or Hella manufacturer. NAA profile is a master key in that it will mechanically lock or unlock any lock cylinder on the car (Doors, ignition, trunk, glove-box, ect) HAA profile keys are used in valet keys, they only unlock driver's door and ignition. Usually you can only buy the keyblade as an entire keyend. NOTE: Keyends are separate part numbers than their remotes ends.
    Are you sure that you dont have this backwards? My wife's master remote key says HAA on it and it works in the hatch, ignition and door locks.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodardhsd View Post
    Are you sure that you dont have this backwards? My wife's master remote key says HAA on it and it works in the hatch, ignition and door locks.

    Mike
    Yeah, that's backwards -- HAA is the one key to rule them all...

  18. #17
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    My Error, HAA is the master. NAA would be found on non-remote style valet keys

    I fixed my post. I had it right in the first part of the post though

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old_School View Post

    The keyend that you bought from Ebay probably not work because you have an IMMO 3 equiped car (2005, B5.5) and the RFID chip has already been programmed to another vehicle.
    So, based on these three facts,

    1. The key transponder (RFID) cannot be programmed and merely returns its digital code when polled by the car.
    2. The car is programmed to accept the key responder.
    3. The dealer's computer connects to a database in germany to unlock the car to allow the car to be programmed for new keys.

    The VAG database in Germany must have all the VINS of all VW's and the corresponding transponder codes that have ever been matched to that VIN. Thus, it is not the car that rejects the previously used transponder that was bought from ebay, it is the VAG database in germany telling the dealer's computer not to allow the transponder to be matched to your car since they can tell that it was previously matched to another VAG car.

    However, I bet if you still had your 4-digit key code (and I've read of ways to read it from the car immobilizer 3) so that you could add keys yourself using VAG-COM, you could still add the used transponder key to your car, since there would be no way to check if the transponder had previously been used.

  20. #19
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    Not quite right....

    Quote Originally Posted by anthracite2003 View Post
    1. The key transponder (RFID) cannot be programmed and merely returns its digital code when polled by the car.
    The transponders are both readable *and* writeable. When you adapt keys to your car, the cluster sends the immobilized-id to the immobilizer-coil in the ignition switch, and thereby programs the transponder in your key. Then you try to use the key, the coil reads back both the key's own read-only code, as well as the one written to it during adaptation.

    With immob-2 clusters, I am told that you can do this over and over. Say, to re-adapt the keys to a new car. (Either because it can always overwrite a car's immob-id into the key, or because it never writes anything at all into the key -- relying only upon the fixed code -- I'm not certain about this.)

    On the other hand, with immob-3 clusters, a lock-bit it set in the key's transponder, disallowing it to be written to again. This has nothing to do with a database, or anything mysterious like that. Whether you use vag-com, or the dealer uses their tools, the adapting of keys to clusters/ecus occurs identically. You can check measurement block 22 in vag-com to check whether or not the transponder in the active key is locked or not.

    Note that this difference between immob-2 and 3 is due to the cluster, not the transponder. The very same writable transponder is used for both immob-2 and 3 cars. It's just that immob-2 cars either re-write the transponder without setting the lock, or simply never write anything to the transponder. Either way, the point is, you can probably re-cycle keys from immob-2 cars, but never from immob-3 cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by anthracite2003 View Post
    2. The car is programmed to accept the key responder.
    This is true, but it also looks to see if the key's write-able code is also correct. It should match the immob-id of the cluster/ecu.

    Quote Originally Posted by anthracite2003 View Post
    3. The dealer's computer connects to a database in germany to unlock the car to allow the car to be programmed for new keys.
    Nope!

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    Cool, so it is more sophisticated than I originally thought. So then, the only thing that the new dealer computer looks up from the database (I'm assuming located in Germany or at VWOA in Michigan) is the SKC code, which is used to unlock the car for programming?

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthracite2003 View Post
    Cool, so it is more sophisticated than I originally thought. So then, the only thing that the new dealer computer looks up from the database (I'm assuming located in Germany or at VWOA in Michigan) is the SKC code, which is used to unlock the car for programming?
    The pin code can somehow be deduced from the Vin and Immobilized-ID. It's always a 5 digit code, starting with 0, i.e. 01234. This code can be extracted directly from the cluster by certain clandestine tools you can buy off the internet.

    However, the dealer doesn't have any 'official' tools to extract this code. Many years back, a VW buyer got this code on a scratch-off tag, along with their keys. But that stopped long ago.

    More recently, the dealer could take your VIN & Immob-ID and use some kind of software to generate a 7 digit code called a SKC. This code, along with the date on which the dealer generated it for you and their dealership ID number, can be used in place of the pin code. In reality, vag-com uses some algorithm to simply turn this 7-digit code + date + ID into the underlying 5 digit pin code.

    Unfortunately, about a year or so ago, the dealerships all changed to using a new system called geko (or something like that.) This system automatically logs into the cluster/ecu by itself, without visually displaying the pin code. As a result, the dealer can mess with clusters and ecus on their own premises, but they cannot actually see (and then tell you) the code you need to DIY with vag-com...

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    Now I'm starting to get a little concerned about the remote I bought on eBay, (besides the fact that it's been almost 3 weeks and have recieved nothing) since my car is a 2002, so I'm guessing an Immo-3 car. I know the blank I have will work with the car, I know the remote half should work, but the remote was previously used, so according to this, the transponder chip cant be reprogrammed. Oh well, I am going to try anyways, and the worst that will happen is I have to buy an upper half from the dealer for $55 on top of the $45 to program the remote. Either way, I'll be sure to report back and let everyone know if it will work or not.

    Mike
    Last edited by woodardhsd; 01-25-2007 at 11:08 AM. Reason: spelling

  24. #23
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    The transponder is *not* in the remote half... It's in the half with the key blade. See the pix above.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodardhsd View Post
    Now I'm starting to get a little concerned about the remote I bought on eBay, (besides the fact that it's been almost 3 weeks and have recieved nothing) since my car is a 2002, so I'm guessing an Immo-3 car. I know the blank I have will work with the car, I know the remote half should work, but the remote was previously used, so according to this, the transponder chip cant be replogrammed. Oh well, I am going to try anyways, and the worst that will happen is I have to buy an upper half from the dealer for $55 on top of the $45 to program the remote. Either way, I'll be sure to report back and let everyone know if it will work or not.

    Mike

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    The transponder is *not* in the remote half... It's in the half with the key blade. See the pix above.
    Yeah, that's what I meant. I'm still learning the correct name to call all these parts. I'm used to my Honda which has a plain key. It's just a key, nothing else. $3 to get a new one cut. Technology is nice, but can be a huge pain in the ass some times.

    The remote half will work, the key blank will work, but the top half with the transponder will not. So I can open the doors with the remote or the key and turn the ignition on, but the car won't stay running.

    On the other hand, with immob-3 clusters, a lock-bit it set in the key's transponder, disallowing it to be written to again. This has nothing to do with a database, or anything mysterious like that. Whether you use vag-com, or the dealer uses their tools, the adapting of keys to clusters/ecus occurs identically. You can check measurement block 22 in vag-com to check whether or not the transponder in the active key is locked or not.

    Note that this difference between immob-2 and 3 is due to the cluster, not the transponder. The very same writable transponder is used for both immob-2 and 3 cars. It's just that immob-2 cars either re-write the transponder without setting the lock, or simply never write anything to the transponder. Either way, the point is, you can probably re-cycle keys from immob-2 cars, but never from immob-3 cars.
    Also, this information above, where did this come from? Have you actually tried this procedure? Did someone with VW tell you this? Common knowledge? I am not doubting you but the contradicting things I have heard from several dealerships leave me unsure.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodardhsd View Post
    Also, this information above, where did this come from? Have you actually tried this procedure? Did someone with VW tell you this? Common knowledge? I am not doubting you but the contradicting things I have heard from several dealerships leave me unsure.
    Mike
    The Immob-3 stuff I know from first hand experience, while the Immob-2 stuff comes from my research on the net. Quite often, the dealships don't know what the hell they're talking about...

  27. #26
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    For those of you with used keys that won't adapt to your car because the transponder is locked, here's what you need:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Transponder-for-...QQcmdZViewItem

    Yeah, I know, I know... No ebay links. But, hey, I thought it would be educational. It's not my auction!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old_School View Post


    For those of you with used keys that won't adapt to your car because the transponder is locked, here's what you need:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Transponder-for-... cmdZViewItem
    Sorry to keep aggravating you about this, but, I want to get as much information as I can. So I can remove the old transponder chip from the top half of the remote and replace it with this transponder chip for sale on eBay? Will the dealer be able to assign this remote to the car if I do so?

    Thanks again,

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodardhsd View Post
    Sorry to keep aggravating you about this, but, I want to get as much information as I can. So I can remove the old transponder chip from the top half of the remote and replace it with this transponder chip for sale on eBay? Will the dealer be able to assign this remote to the car if I do so?

    Thanks again,

    Mike
    That should work.

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    Can someone tell me how to take my key fob apart like is shown in the pictures? I understand about the small pin holding the blade in, but how do I disassemble the actual black part to get to the immobilizer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtaylor42 View Post
    Can someone tell me how to take my key fob apart like is shown in the pictures? I understand about the small pin holding the blade in, but how do I disassemble the actual black part to get to the immobilizer?
    The two halves of the key separate by simly pulling them apart. You can use a flat edged screw driver, or something similar, to assist. The half which contains the transponder and key blade can be open by removing a screw. That screw is hidden behind the VW symbol, which you'll have to pry off. The symbol is glued on.

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