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Throttle Body Adaptation - 1.8T 01.5

36K views 52 replies 14 participants last post by  modifiedA4 
#1 ·
Not to beat a dead horse to death... I know there are a lot of TBA discussions here, but I am about to clean my throttle body because of a rough surging idle and I don't have a VAG-COM. Somewhere I read that the throttle body will adapt on its own after a couple of days driving. Is that right, and if so, why would I want to pay the dealership to have it adapted TODAY? TIA
 
#2 ·
StealthB5 said:
Not to beat a dead horse to death... I know there are a lot of TBA discussions here, but I am about to clean my throttle body because of a rough surging idle and I don't have a VAG-COM. Somewhere I read that the throttle body will adapt on its own after a couple of days driving. Is that right, and if so, why would I want to pay the dealership to have it adapted TODAY? TIA
the throttle body doesnt adapt during driving. there are two ways to do adaption.

1) vag-com

2)disconnect battery/ecu
reconnect
turn key to ON position
-DO NOT START-
-DO NOT PRESS GAS PEDAL-
leave on for 2-3minutes
then start car
-DO NOT PRESS GAS PEDAL-
idle for 2-3minutes
you're done.
 
#3 ·
modifiedA4 said:
the throttle body doesnt adapt during driving. there are two ways to do adaption.

1) vag-com

2)disconnect battery/ecu
reconnect
turn key to ON position
-DO NOT START-
-DO NOT PRESS GAS PEDAL-
leave on for 2-3minutes
then start car
-DO NOT PRESS GAS PEDAL-
idle for 2-3minutes
you're done.
1) is an adaptation: the movement of the throttle body is *calibrated* with the voltage signals sent to the actuator unit. (voltage in vs. throttle angle sensor out.)

2) is not really an "adaptation" (calibration). Instead, many of the ECU's "learned" parameters are reset to neutral settings, resulting in a car that is most-likely driveable.
 
#4 ·
pete1 said:
2) is not really an "adaptation" (calibration). Instead, many of the ECU's "learned" parameters are reset to neutral settings, resulting in a car that is most-likely driveable.
sorry that is incorrect. the ecu does perform a throttle adaption. if it was a simple reset there would be no need to "wait" for the ECU to adapt. by waiting, the ecu learned the new end stop positions. you actually can hear the servo running through its range while it adapts.
 
#5 ·
Well, I cleaned my throttle body, and man did it need it. I have used Castrol *full* synthetic since it was new, so I never expected that there would be so much gunk. I'm surprised the butterfly could move at all! I cleaned it with CRC (safe for Teflon) spray by spraying on a cotton cloth and scrubbing. I read other posts warning about spraying in the bore, and this method worked just fine. You can now see the mirror finish in the bore, and the car runs like *new* - unbelievable difference! It had also been hesitating when starting up from stops for at least the past two years - so long that I thought it always did it.

An interesting thing happened though. I first removed the intake hose, and then the electrical connector. Then I realized I needed to go buy a socket adapter. I put the hose back on, forgot to put the connector back on, and started the engine. Oh sh*t. I got an EPC and MIL on the dash, and the gas pedal wouldn't respond at all. Realizing what I had done, I shut it off and reattached the connector. Dang - I still had a MIL! With no VAG-COM, my cheap maintenance (just a $4 TB gasket from VW) suddenly became more expensive (or so I thought). I made the trip to the store with it, and then proceeded to remove and clean the TB. I also called an auto diagnostics shop and made a same day appointment for a VAG-COM TBA/code reset ($58, stealership wanted $87). I finished the job, put everything back together, and went into the house to do stuff for about an hour until my appointment. THEN - when I started up to leave for the apptmt, I noticed - NO MIL! I drove it around on several errands, starts and stops for about two hours, and MIL never came back. Car runs unbelievably great - I have no clue how it corrected itself...but I'm not complaining!
 
#8 · (Edited)
modifiedA4 said:
sorry that is incorrect. the ecu does perform a throttle adaption. if it was a simple reset there would be no need to "wait" for the ECU to adapt. by waiting, the ecu learned the new end stop positions. you actually can hear the servo running through its range while it adapts.
Block 60 adaptation takes about 8 seconds, and makes a totally different set of sounds than the key-and-door trick. Also, bentley recommends switching away from basic-settings-60 within 30 seconds of performing the adaptation. On the other hand, with the key-in-door trick the TB only makes noise for the first second or two of the two-to-three minute wait.

Can you provide any data to back-up that the key-in-door trick actually does the exact same calabration as a vag-com block-60 TB adaptation? Have you tried logging/watching block 60 while doing a key-in-door?

I think the noise you are hearing with the key-in-door is the same TB movement that ocurrs on *all* starts... you just don't hear it over the other noises when the starter is cranked. IMO, the two-to-three minute wait is to keep from "hitting reset" during daily use -- nothing happens until 2 to 3 minutes pass, and then the ECU learned parameters are reset.
 
#9 ·
pete1 said:
Block 60 adaptation takes about 8 seconds, and makes a totally different set of sounds than the key-and-door trick. Also, bentley recommends switching away from basic-settings-60 within 30 seconds of performing the adaptation. On the other hand, with the key-in-door trick the TB only makes noise for the first second or two of the two-to-three minute wait.

Can you provide any data to back-up that the key-in-door trick actually does the exact same calabration as a vag-com block-60 TB adaptation? Have you tried logging/watching block 60 while doing a key-in-door?

I think the noise you are hearing with the key-in-door is the same TB movement that ocurrs on *all* starts... you just don't hear it over the other noises when the starter is cranked. IMO, the two-to-three minute wait is to keep from "hitting reset" during daily use -- nothing happens until 2 to 3 minutes pass, and then the ECU learned parameters are reset.
Key in door? Never heard of that...Im referring to the procedure that most chip manufacturers recommened anfter ECU installation.

Like APR for instance:

http://www.goapr.com/Audi/support/ecu_a4_s4_a6_late.pdf
 
#10 ·
TB adaptation after swapping chips recommended by Wetterauer doesn't even involve disconnecting the battery.

Now I am going to keep my mouth shut till I see and learn how a VAG com works. But all I want to mention is that the buzzing/beeping happens for more than 8 seconds when we do the above 'turn key to ACC position with hood open'. In fact a lot longer.
 
#12 ·
modifiedA4 said:
Key in door? Never heard of that...Im referring to the procedure that most chip manufacturers recommened anfter ECU installation.

Like APR for instance:

http://www.goapr.com/Audi/support/ecu_a4_s4_a6_late.pdf
sorry.. I mean "key-and-door"... it was late. We're talking about the same procedure. I guess if APR says it does a TB adaptation, then it must be true. :thumbup:
 
#13 ·
funny, the bentley manual says the key in the ignition just resets the ecu, but does not do a TBA. If the key in the ignition for 2 minutes did a TBA why would there be an entire procedure to do it using a vag tool or vag-com?
 
#14 ·
not_too_shabby said:
funny, the bentley manual says the key in the ignition just resets the ecu, but does not do a TBA. If the key in the ignition for 2 minutes did a TBA why would there be an entire procedure to do it using a vag tool or vag-com?
Its common knowledge that the key procedure does a TBA. Most/All tuners agree it does...The guys at ross-tech say it does..etc. Just because something is or isnt in the bentley doesnt add any credability. I could point out all sorts of wierdness in the VW/Audi realm :)
 
#15 · (Edited)
modifiedA4 said:
Key in door? Never heard of that...Im referring to the procedure that most chip manufacturers recommened anfter ECU installation.

Like APR for instance:

http://www.goapr.com/Audi/support/ecu_a4_s4_a6_late.pdf
It's still different. From the procedure:

APR said:
Step 9: Throttle Adaptation. <---ross-tech uses the same word "adaptation" for a different procedure
· Turn the ignition key to the ignition ON position but do not start the car.
· Leave the key in this position for three minutes.
· This will allow the ECU to relearn the relative throttle positions and
prevent possible error codes.
So the ECU relearns the relative throttle positions. It doesn't know if the current throttle positions are correct. Like pete1 is saying, the TBA needs to be done so that fully closed = fully closed, fully open = fully open, and whatever else inbetween. Call up APR and ask them. Unless there's debate in-house there, you'll get the same explanation as I stated. Why does APR offer the TBA (Throttle Body Alignment <---note: different word than adaptation) option if one can do it for free with just the key? I would also like to know where Uwe Ross says they do the same thing.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I'll try to log throttle position during an "APR Step 9" (key-and-door trick) to see if I can shed any light on it... I still think it is a mechanically-different procedure from a block-60 TBA, but I'll try to be objective and give it another look. I'll try a stethescope, too, to see if there is an audible difference in what happens between the two procedures. Gimme a day or two to get this stuff done and report back...

^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Adaptation" is VW's word for Calibration. "Alignment" could mean anything, I suppose.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I have my clients do the same thing with the hood and ACC power on. I have them wait a little longer. Not one single problem yet.

I believe the Block 60 does a little bit more adaptation and calibration.

The manual key and hood method does just the throttle body adaptation.

I wrote before I checked the Vag-com and Bently... Shame on me. That is why I edited the post.
 
#18 ·
Hallopt45 said:
I have my clients do the same thing with the hood and ACC power on. I have them wait a little longer. Not one single problem yet.
I don't doubt this at all. I think the *results* of both ways are essentially the same for a reasonably-maintained car. Now if the TB is completely caked with oil crud, that may be another story...
 
#19 ·
pete1 said:
I don't doubt this at all. I think the *results* of both ways are essentially the same for a reasonably-maintained car. Now if the TB is completely caked with oil crud, that may be another story...
That is true. I like to look over the car (if at all possible) before I chip it. There are a ton of problems that can make a chipping look like the culprit. Using a Vag-Com before and after is a great plus.

I also like to check out the Automatic transmission for errors both before and after. I do what is known as the Tip-chip mod. for my clients as well. It is so easy that I do not charge a chipping customer to do the tip-chip. A person that just wants the tip-chip portion alone is required to pay in bier.
 
#20 ·
shummer said:
So the ECU relearns the relative throttle positions. It doesn't know if the current throttle positions are correct. Like pete1 is saying, the TBA needs to be done so that fully closed = fully closed, fully open = fully open, and whatever else inbetween.
Some light can be shed on this subject by looking at the S4 engine self study program. (which you can find at my website, www.modifieda4.com, we're interested in page 42 btw)

Basic adjustment (adaption) ...
... involves not only learning the throttle valve position, but also a complete check of the throttle valve control part
... can be performed using the following three methods:

* manually - provided the ignition has been switched on for at least 24 minutes without operating the starter or accelerator.

* automatically - provided the need for adaption is acknowledged.

* specifically - by initiating basic setting 04 in measured value block 60 (refer to Workshop Manual)

Adaption conditions

For basic setting (adaption), the test conditions described in the Workshop Manual must be met.

The basic setting routine will be cancelled if the test conditions are not fulfilled while it is in progress.
note the "24"minutes number...there was a debate on audiworld whether this is a typo for 2-4minutes.

even still...

given that:
A) there is mention of a manual TBA in the SSP
and
B) there is widely known procedure of 3minutes after a power disconnect
=
C) a manual throttle adaption procedure exists, and most likely the procedure recommended by tuners (who know motronic code) is valid as well.

Why does APR offer the TBA (Throttle Body Alignment <---note: different word than adaptation) option if one can do it for free with just the key?
Because the manual procedure, as recommended by them, requires the battery to be disconnected OR the ECU removed. what's easier? flicking the cruise control stalk OR disconnecting the battery/removing the ECU?

(the different name is symantics)

I would also like to know where Uwe Ross says they do the same thing.
he alludes to it here:

You can then do the "2 minute" thing with the key, which *might* align the throttle body, or you can use a VAG type scan-tool and *know* it's done properly..:)
http://forums.audiworld.com/vag/msgs/2615.phtml

Well anyway, I own a vag-com and I've done the TBA both ways, manually and specifically. I'd recommend everyone buy a vag-com and use it to its fullest, even to do TBAs with it so you dont have to disconnect the battery or ecu :)
 
#21 ·
That SSP is a neat read! :thumbup: That's the first time I've seen the key-and-door-trick spelled out clearly by a VWaG pubplication (I'm starting to think the "door" part is an urban legend). Got a 1.8T SSP handy, by any chance? :)
 
#22 ·
pete1 said:
That SSP is a neat read! :thumbup: That's the first time I've seen the key-and-door-trick spelled out clearly by a VWaG pubplication (I'm starting to think the "door" part is an urban legend). Got a 1.8T SSP handy, by any chance? :)
To be honest...I've never heard the "door" part of doing a TBA. It makes absolutely no sense to me why the door would have anything to do with the throttle body.

I dont have the 1.8t SSP...wish i did though :)
 
#24 ·
modifiedA4 said:
To be honest...I've never heard the "door" part of doing a TBA. It makes absolutely no sense to me why the door would have anything to do with the throttle body.

I dont have the 1.8t SSP...wish i did though :)
I think we created our own "urban legend" around here: some guys will swear that you have to leave the driver's door open while you wait for 2 to 4 minutes with the key in the igition.

I googled {"self study program" audi volkswagen} and found that bentley sells a bunch of them for all of VWaG's latest engines, transmissions, etc... except for the 1.8T. Hmmm.
 
#25 ·
This is kind of off topic but thought you guys would know the answer to my problem. I cleaned my TB and when I tried doing the TBA using the Vag it wouldn't work. I tried everything but when I put it on another car, the b5, i have a b5.5 it did the TBA.... does anyone know why it worked on the other car and not mine?

2002 b5.5 giac chip...

tia
 
#26 ·
<off_topic>
baisee00 said:
This is kind of off topic but thought you guys would know the answer to my problem. I cleaned my TB and when I tried doing the TBA using the Vag it wouldn't work. I tried everything but when I put it on another car, the b5, i have a b5.5 it did the TBA.... does anyone know why it worked on the other car and not mine?

2002 b5.5 giac chip...

tia
Baisee what are you doing up this early?? :poke:

Are you sure you plugged it in correctly on the B5.5? Try it again after re-seating the electrical connector. If that's not it, my next guesses are that you have either a wiring problem in the TB harness or an accelerator pedal position sensor problem. Any DTCs? What step does the TBA fail on? Did the TBA work just prior to the cleaning?
</off_topic>
 
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