I am starting a new thread as i had it ealier under passat help cct.
I have a 2001 1.8T i got for really cheap but needed new engine cause last one was toast- due to oil sludge. The new engine is a 2003 with 40k so i was hoping it would last me for a long time. i bought that in august and it has been constantly in the shop with my mechanic. I wish i knew about the oil sludge before as much as i have read now b/c i would have had my mechanic drop the pan before he installed it and check the pickup vent. this is the story: my husband drove it hard up the road after he charged the a/c. Then he heard a loud TINK type noise then the OIL PRES STOP came on for the 1st time that we had seen (had it for a few days at that point). Then he limped it home (1/2 mile). then i started up the car and it made a horrible noise, made me think of timing belt and quickly shut off. Had it towed to mechanic and he couldnt recreate the problem for days. We got it back and when i took it 20 miles and on hilly stretches of 55 mph, then the warnings started up again and more often. i would pull over turn off, restart go a mile, etc. Got to a point where engine seemed overly hot and could then smell some oil that had dripped down the side of the engine, my husband recalls near the turbo. My mechanic drove to car for a weekend and was able to recreate the situation. He figures we need need pickup tube. My husband is concerned the whole engine is totaled and should swap it out with the company we got it from. Before we have him drop the pan i had my mechanic looked into the drained oil pan with a boroscope, but he saw nothing. He poured the drained oil into another bucket and reported tiny black plastic bits.
He will open valve cover and look at the status in there. i wonder if CCT chewed through valve cover, or CCA pads worn.
1. I asked him to look under valve cover and check for sludge signs and pop out one of the cams- valid request?
2. If the cams look good should i pursue fixing this or just get a new used engine to swap out cause between replacing CCT VCG PCV and oil pump pickup tube this is going to cost well over 1000! If people think its such a huge deal then i can call the company and it should be legitimate to swap out engine, course i have to have wasted money on multiple installs
I told him if we are going to drop the pan, i will come up with a whole parts list of stuff for him to change out while he is doing the oil pickup tube because i am not doing this again.
Spottedbat, everything you show here proves that you have dirt inside the engine, not oil starvation. Oil starvation will cause soft metals to melt (bearing coatings, aluminum cam bearing along with camshafts) and it will look different that the pictures you show IMO. That doesn't mean the 40k mls are kind of hard to believe.
The brown coating (and the dark brown hard deposits) are oil components breaking down and cause staining/deposits. Very common on gas engines, depending on oil changes interval and mileage.
I am not sure if you are just trying to get money back from the engine seller (I agree it doesn't look like 40k mls), or trying to sort out the problem. Maybe both.
There are 2 different ways of "no oil pressure". One, cars with high mileage engines, lot of wear on on rotating parts and too much play between the parts lubricated under pressure. This allows the pressure to drop (when engine/oil warms up) enough where it triggers the "no oil pressure" msg.
Second cause for "no oil pressure" is somewhat typical for these engines (and other few, but let's not go there now) and consists of clogged oil pump strainer. When this happens, the engine has ZERO oil going to any of the rotating parts, and extensive damage happens very fast. You need to find out which one you have.
These cars are a little bit particular, because they do not signal the "no oil pressure" warning when the RPMs are below 1200 (maybe 1300) so for some people it can look like you have good oil pressure at idle, when actually you don't. As said before, driving "slow" with no oil pressure is not really helping.
I hope this clears a little the symptoms/causes for oil pressure issues. Your mechanic should really try to duplicate the conditions in which the message popped up (I would assume drive it hard for a good 15-20 minutes) and see what is causing it: too much wear (an oil pressure gauge will indicate SOME oil pressure, just not up to specs) or clogged strainer (NO oil pressure as in zero).
One rule of thumb: if the dash beeps at 1400 rpms and the message goes away if the revs go up a little, you are experiencing the wear problem. If the light stays ON even at higher RPMs, you probably have a clogged strainer.
But keep in mind, driving with a clogged strainer is like putting a heart attack patient on a treadmill to confirm the diagnostic... You can try it if for some reason you get the car back and you are driving it when it happens, but it's better to allow a good mechanic to diagnose it.
regarding dino oil used for 40 k as it seems a possible explanation. after reading more posts, example:
Quote Originally Posted by ems
It has to do with chemistry & chemical engineering, and not having a degree in either I'll probably not say it right but here goes...
Most/all of the sludge/coke/varnish deposites are created from overheating natural dyno oil. Auto RX frees up those deposites at the particulate/molecular level, which doesn't all get picked up by the oil filter. In the rinse phase, those particulate/molecular deposites chemically bond to the like dyno oil in liquid form, and then get flushed out in the drain. Because synthetic oil has different molecular properties and characteristics, the dyno based deposites or sludge will not chemically bond to it.
After investing the time/$ in auto rx, I think you'd be silly not to switch back or over to synthetic, especially with the 1.8T.
If there's any chemists or CE's out there please correct me or fill in the blanks. " end quote
Now since my engine came from Florida for originally, theres a good change it was taken to its dealer and give dino cause i have heard of dealers doing that, or they brought it to jiffy lube. Point is, people have done dino for the first 40 and i didnt know the signs and that cleaning with autoRX properly as directed would be in order since i know i need to clean the pickup tube at this point. My engine sounds fine, no ticking, one wouldnt know there was an issue till the fully heated up engine. Do i give this engine a chance. Why do people think it is toast when some people think you can clean up change to synthetic and be okay. Do i have way too much high heat damage (where is the evidence of meltage, none that we see. just the coke deposits.
I havent called the company to say there is NO WAY this has 40K because if there is a chance it is and just needs to be cleaned up, i dont want to be wasting money with removing engine and replacing engine. Please comment, i need to make a decision. Thanks.
Do i give this engine a chance. Why do people think it is toast when some people think you can clean up change to synthetic and be okay. Do i have way too much high heat damage (where is the evidence of meltage, none that we see. just the coke deposits.
I havent called the company to say there is NO WAY this has 40K because if there is a chance it is and just needs to be cleaned up, i dont want to be wasting money with removing engine and replacing engine. Please comment, i need to make a decision. Thanks.
Whether you give the engine a chance isn't ultimately going to be up to you, it'll be up to the interpretation of the warranty. I haven't yet seen proof the engine is "toast", I've seen evidence it was either abused (on a later model Passat B5.5, after they changed the oil recommendation, conventional oil IS abuse) or has much higher miles than stated. One can infer the engine has at least some damage, simply because it was run with low oil pressure, but it may not be fatal. The crud you see up top will not necessarily cause low oil pressure; you have to eliminate a blocked pickup before making that judgement.
I would not place too much faith in Auto RX or any other chemical nostrum to clean things up. While stuff like that - or even clean synthetic oil - will eventually remove some deposits, if the oil passages are blocked it'll take way too long to salvage the situation. Also, auto RX will remove some sludge, but is entirely ineffective against coke, which is different and overwhelmingly the problem with 1.8T's.
Short version: Just an oil pressure warning - for any reason - from a recently replaced engine would make me want to dump it, if possible. The crud shown just reinforces that.
I think I totally agree. Do I have my terms wrong? Should I not say the engine shows oil starvation? Definitely has coke buildup and I agree it should be dumped if I can now rather than take my chances. That's it, I will call the company and report back. If they refuse you know I will be requesting more info for help from everyone -thank you!
You mentioned there were metal flakes or bits. There shouldn't be any IMO. If its from the chain eating through say the lower CCT pad which you cannot see in your photos, that's one thing. If its from some machined surface like a bearing well that's bad.
If there is coked oil in the engine, it will be impossible to get rid of it (autoRx wont help). Its in all the passages, the turbo oil line. You'll be spending your time on various rinses and flushes. None of them will work.
You may have good oil pressure except when the oil is heated up and gets thinner which seems to be what is happening in your case. So maybe you can do something to fix that, and cleaning the pickup tube is the low hanging fruit in that case (again, much easier if this was caught before the engine went in). It may work. But the metal in the crankcase is a red flag.
I just think its a lot to have to accept from a used engine.
The health of an engine is a lot of things. Compression and oil pressure are two high level tests. Then, you drill down to clearances of various machined surfaces etc and that's where the rubber meets the road. I don't think you should be spending your time and money trying to figure all this out.
In the end noone knows how many miles are on this engine. They can claim whatever. In the end it doesn't matter as much. Its just a number, and in this case a perfect example of why it means so little.
What an odd thing for them to say on a website. Really bizarre and suspect or incredibly stupid.
Its a tough spot to be in I recognize. Hopefully someone else here can give you better guidance on what to do.
Excessively low oil pressure (low enough to trigger the warning light) means the engine is bad. That should be enough to ask for a warranty replacement. A healthy engine has enough oil pressure to keep that light from coming on. You can verify the problem is actually a lack of pressure and not a failed pressure warning system by installing an oil pressure gauge and driving the car through the same paces that caused the warning light to come on before. If the warning comes on and the gauge indicates abnormally low pressure, you've confirmed the problem.
The following goes for most all cars, not just Volkswagens... When swapping engines you have easy access to things that are normally hard to get at. Many people replace things like the oil pump and/or timing system while the engine is out of the car. You're not adding a whole lot of additional labor to an already labor intensive job. You would be adding to the list of parts.
Should you invest more money/effort/time into seeing if this engine can be brought back to usable condition or get a warranty replacement? That's the big question! No one knows if this engine can be revived with small effort (like a new oil pickup & pump). No one knows if the replacement engine you get will be in any better condition then this one. Both options require gambling more money/effort/time towards an uncertain outcome.
would I need to check all the cam bearings for scoring? I only looked at two.I guess first I will call the company to see what they say. If they're going to make it really difficult I will have to pursue fixing this thing up and will put in the effort to check all the cam bearings and the main bearing etc.yes I love those threads, thats what gave me a lot of this research I just wish I knew about it when I first bought the engine! thanks for the details on where metal shavings could be coming from. I think I have a good chance this company will swap it out. Especially with that VIN number cross-checking idea.
Steve Is right about the engine being defective and that you should be able to return it. However dealing with salvage yards in situations like this can be dicey at best. I think i was assuming the worst that trying that approach would result in more headaches and possibly another engine in similar condition.
You do need to pull the front and back cam caps. These are the ones most likely to fail because they are under the greatest load. If they look like this then you really do have a problem. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=563691
Birdmann829 Did you own this engine from the beginning? used synthetic from day 1? How often you change oil now? thanks for sharing your picture, it shows me how people comment mine looks bad!
I'm the second owner. The car is a 2001.5 that I purchased from the original owner in 2012 at 75k miles. As far as I can tell one oil change was done with dino oil the first time the previous owner took it to an independent shop. The next change it says "synthetic" in bold letters. I change the oil every 4-5k.
Although mine is a V6, here's another example - this engine has/had 127k on the odo. I have no idea about its maintenance history (dumb me for not investigating the car thoroughly before the purchase), but it seems to have been kept up with synthetic oil.
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Wow, thanks for the high quality image, really puts in it perspective. the update is that i am waiting to hear back from the company about what they are going to do about this, i sent them an email and pictures.
Well, i got great news! They really treated me right over there, i got some money back and to keep the engine as well! So thats money i feel like i wasted with all this. They did a car fax check and everything checks out, this litterally has 39something thousand miles. I wouldnt have gotten as far as i did with them had it not been for all the info here and help from members to build up my argument, so thanks to all of you for that.
I will invest in having my mechanic drop oil pan replace pump, pickup, etc. While he is down there i want him to look at whatever he can to investigate anything he should replace. I want as much done as he can, so please advise what i need to specify. I have my guages ordered (boost/vacuum, oil pressure/ temp) and will work on installing them soon after. I will be getting a new PCV kit for sure. I will conduct a real pressure test while driving, but first i was thinking of cleaning the engine with the procedure for seafoam and then doing another oil change after 100 miles. Then see how good my pressure is and if that damn light comes on... Please list any ideas, i appreciate all opinions, thanks.
That is good news. I'm sorry I sounded so pessimistic. I just feel like the salvage business is not a high profit margin business so there is not a lot of incentive to make customers happy. I'm glad I was wrong in this case. I'm also glad the VIN number helped clear up the concern about the age of the engine. My friend is an ER nurse and she tells me stories all of the time where 50yr olds come through and look like they are 85years old because they drink, smoke and ear crap. Then they get 85 year olds that look 60 because they take care if themselves.
Like SC said if the cam caps are good then there is a good chance your main and rod bearings will be ok.
I still remember from your original post you described a ping/clink sound when driving hard and some engine noise the following day. At this point I would still be wondering what that was. Maybe with the pan down you may find something.
One more thing if the mechanic does drop the pan pull the middle main bearing cap and ask him to check the clearance with a plastiguage. He can then compare this with the WV spec and see how you look. If the clearance is in spec and there is no evidence of other problems you will have gained some nice piece of mind.
At 40k miles I doubt the oil pump would be damaged but this too can be checked very easily. With the pump removed you can have him check the clearance between the pump teeth. A new pump is also fairly inexpensive. Genuine OEM for about $100.
So it looks like we have an engine with 40ish thousand miles on it and it's crusty inside and the oil pressure warning light was coming on. Now we need to determine if it can be put into dependable condition for a practical amount of time/money. This will mostly depend on how much oil starvation damage has occurred.
This engine obviously wasn't cared for in the best way. It may have been fed dino oil, given extended oil change intervals, driven mostly short trip, driven with an inoperative PCV system. Those are all things that will contribute to a gunked up engine. The filth building up on the inside of the engine isn't the big problem. The filth blocking oil flow is the big problem. Without adequate oil pressure and flow, mechanical parts inside don't get lubricated and cooled. The major bearings (crank, cam, rod) are all fluid bearings and require oil flow to function.
Lets say the oil pickup screen gets blocked with gunk. Oil pressure and flow will be reduced. If we catch this right away and get a clean screen installed, we're OK. But if the engine is used for a long time with insufficient oil flow, bearings will get worn away. Now if you get a new screen installed you still have damaged bearings. The big question for this engine is, how much has it suffered (if any) damage to bearings and other hard parts?
Inspecting cam bearing caps is one indicator of oil starvation damage. If you find some damaged cam bearings, expect the rest of the engine to be in similar condition. The next deeper level of investigation is to inspect and measure crank and rod bearings. This can't happen unless the oil pan comes off.
Another way to go is invest/gamble a new oil pump and pickup. Install an oil pressure gauge and see how it behaves. If your numbers are good enough, you win. If you've still got insufficient pressure, you're out the investment.
The inspection results can give you an idea how risky a pump/screen gamble is going to be. Is the pickup screen clear or blocked? If you've got scored cam bearings, call it quits. If all the cam parts you see look healthy, the rest of the fluid bearings might also be healthy.
Wow, great, now lets hope the problem is easily fixed. In addition to the above have your mechanic put the pan in the parts cleaner, and to install a magnetic plug.
Make the pan drop count. If there is a way to determine where those plastic and metal bits came from that is a major win. A lot will depend on what he finds on the screen. He may need to go up to the valve cover and inspect the CCT. If he gets the front to the service position, ask him to check the turbo shaft for play too.
Don't do seafoam (yet). Get the oil pressure problem sorted out first and foremost -- this is priority one. Seafoam wont do much to clean your engine anyway. Seriously, until you know what the problem is, don't mess with any additives. Only approved full synthetic oiling, grade 0w40 or 5w40. Check the VAG 00 502 approved oil list.
Whatever tests your mechanic does, whatever measurements he takes (gear lash, bearing clearances, oil pressure, code scan) ask him to write those down on the work order.
Looks like a neglected 40K mi motor to me. We've had a 30K mi motor with a ton of sludge build up. No damage to the car parts. No low oil pressure light though. Your pictures of the cam caps look good. I wouldn't say there is much if any wear. I'm also happy to see that there isn't sludge debris in the cap. Looks like some oil discoloration though... I can't find a good clear picture of your cam journals but from what I can see looks like minor wear. I would consider it acceptable.
Our 30k mi engine didn't look so orange. It was mostly dark black and we had much more build up than yours. Cost ~$4500 for the whole job at the VW dealer. Replaced everything PCV, suction tube, turbo lines, etc. I don't think we did oil pump, but I can't remember. If you can I would replace the pump too since the pan is off. Oil pan and Valve Cover cleaned in a parts washer. It underwent the "official" VW sludge cleaning as well. Tech said it was some sort of hot lubricating cleaner mixture they flushed through. Cylinder head was sent out to a 3rd party to be disassembled, washed, and reassembled. Since then we've put an extra 20K on the car w/o any problems from the engine. There was an unrelated transmission pan leak though... fix that and is still going strong.
edit: didn't see the 2nd page. I should be asleep.
Don't bother checking main bearings. The Overhead is where you need to look. First at least. If there is no damage in the over head (cam journals and bearings) then the main bearings will be fine too. If there is damage then you'll have to ask the question of is it worth the money to replace the cylinder head and valve train components and it probably isn't. Just swap a motor again check it for sludge before installation, and replace the oil pump (b/c its a PITA in chassis) or trash the car.
If his mechanic is going to be in the bottom end replacing the oil pump, to NOT check the main and cam bearings would just be (IMHO) silly. Yes, the top end is more likely to show wear sooner, but I've seen at least one motor with blown out bottom bearings, and a mostly clean head. Call it material composition, call it the force being exerted from the combustion chamber, call it what you will, but when you're already that far in, to not take a peak just seems nonsensical to me.
By overhead, do you mean, before dropping the dropping the pan i need to inspect each cam journal, cause it is true i only looked at #4 passenger and driver side. If overhead looks fine, you are saying main bearings dont need looking at (via dropping oil pan and working way up, is that how it works? We will be dropping oil pan, and so its good to know if need a new head, thats what i am hearing, correct? Heres some more picts:
passenger cam cap:
Agree on not doing main bearings, like DaOne said. If they're bad, so are other things and you should get a new motor. If your oil pressure comes back, they're OK.
Consider cutting into the oil filter to see what kind of crud got trapped in there.
Should i have him take both the rods out prior to dropping oil pan (or just driverside because then it may mess with my timing job) cause i want to know sooner than later and he has to schedule the big oil pan job. if he does i would have him change CCT and gaskets if things look good
"Rods" as in camshafts? If so, that's your call. For an experienced mechanic, lifting them to look underneath is not a lot of additional work, and it would give you pretty definitive information. That said, what I see in the most recent pictures looks pretty good. Also agree if it looks good up top, the bottom is almost certainly OK.
You're already going to be replacing the valve cover gaskets, IMHO since it's open I'd do the CCT seal as well. I made the mistake of not doing so once, and wouldn't repeat it. And, given the apparent neglect, I'd service the entire PCV system as well. But look in the sump first.
I must also say I disagree with javis that you're wasting money. If you now have an essentially free engine, a little works to salvage it is not a bad idea. There have been a fair number of members who have just cleaned/replaced their oil pickup tubes, and their engines have then lead long and useful lives...
Hate to say it, but I think your throwing away money. Paying $2500 for that POS motor and then having to pay a mechanic to f around with it, is a fools folly. If you were doing the work yourself, then maybe.... but then your not. With all you paid for the car, the engine and the mechanic, you could have purchased a car that runs... You didn't say how much money they returned, hopefully it was almost all of it.... I don't want to come off as a dick, but sometimes you got to know when to fold them.
Minimally i will be investing 400 to have him drop pan, check things out, measuring distances etc. That way i can see if this motor isnt a POS. so i am being hopefully optimistic. The junkyard had an AWM with 82k and we didnt want to take the risk with that one. Maybe i will be really lucky and it will all turn out ok. what can i say, i was about ready to fold when it came down to feeling like i lost 2400 on the engine, but now that i am back in the game, i will just play just little more...I think looking more into the head rather than drop the pan is what is called for, right? less time wasted sounds like. Thanks Scott for your encouragement.
You don't need to go through the extra work of removing the cams to inspect for damaged cam bearings. Just remove the caps and inspect what you can see from there with the cams still in place. If you've got no damage exposed with the caps removed, the bottom half of those bearings are probably also fine. Check the manual to see of those cam cap bolts are reusable or if they need to be replaced if taken apart. Torque them to the specification called for in the manual.
If they do pull some crank or rod bearings for inspection, check the manual to see of those bolts are reusable or if they need to be replaced if taken apart.
As Scott and Steve have agreed/clarified. Do not pull the main caps. It's not worth it for the risk. Do pull the oil pan. Check for any debris in the pan and clean it. If the main bearings have spun there will be debris there. The main bearings are the first to get oil and the overhead (cams and valves) is the last. If there is an oil starvation problem it will show up in the overhead first. Those pictures you posted look great. Little to no damage.
You do not need to pull cams or remove the cylinder head unless you want to clean the whole head. Cleaning the whole head is optional, but probably a good idea but only a good idea if you know a good cylinder head shop. Otherwise the risk likely outweighs the reward. At the very least you need to pull the oil pan and replace the oil pump suction tube. I would recommend that you also replace the entire PCV system on the car. This is a rather large job, but if you're going to be paying this mechanic any where near $4k don't do it and tow it to the VW dealer.
That's my 2 cents. Obviously the choice is yours.
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